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| | MRC Bounce Challenge: 15th entry by Infinite |
| | Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:34 Submitted by: snout Topic: Challenges | | The 15th and final entry to the MRC Bounce challenge comes from Infinite, MRC Challenge regulars who won the Under Water Challenge with their demo Coral 2 and ranked third in the Snowfall challenge with their entry Digital Snow.
For the Bounce Challenge, Infinite created a fullscreen animation engine for MSX: 4motion. This demo is the first display of the capabilities of this engine. The demo, which comes on two disks, needs a 7MHz Z80 or R800 with 512kB RAM and a Moonsound with 512kB SRAM to run correctly. Infinite plan to release more 4motion demo's on MSX in the future.
As the Infinite Bounce entry, like the TNI Bounce demo, was received after 3:00 CET and before 12:00 CET the entry will be judged by ANMA for winning a prize, but it will receive a one point penalty for missing the deadline of the challenge.
Relevant link: Sphere |
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| By wolf_ on October 12 2004, 12:36 | pssst.
@ black screen.. swap disk and press any [key]
pssst.
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| By chaos on October 12 2004, 12:43 | I'm proud of you guys!! The most spectecular MSX demo i've ever seen!
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| By snout on October 12 2004, 12:54 | Indeed, this demo rulez. Respect!
(chaos: Did you have a peek at the TNI entry already?  )
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| By chaos on October 12 2004, 13:09 | ofcourse snout! check my reply in that post 
btw.. you're doing really good things in Musica!
F*ck moonblaster eh!
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| By Ivan on October 12 2004, 13:56 | Which file should I execute to see the demo?
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| By chaos on October 12 2004, 14:10 | try sphere.ldr
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| By chaos on October 12 2004, 14:11 | btw, at the moment it seems only a real MSX and OpenMSX can handle this demo
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| By NYYRIKKI on October 12 2004, 14:39 |
You have been looking too much demos from other platforms. I think, that someone should have told you, that 3D effects are not possible on MSX because VDP is so slow and Z80 does not have floating point instructions. :-) I think, you don't have to worry too much about that one lost point. :-)
This took the MSX demoscene strait to next level...
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| By wolf_ on October 12 2004, 14:53 | fact 1: I *am* a part of a lazy/sleeping PC group (TBL)
fact 2: this summer, 2 ppz from the Czech Republic visited me here for a week, both C64 roots, saying that MSX demos were boring and dull because it was mainly scrolls/logos etc. (alse weren't really impressed by UR) They showed some pretty amazing c64-demos for 0.8mhz then in a c64-emu... amazing in such a way that they could do what an MSX couldn't, simply because of that ^&%$# bus we have on our MSX'es. So it was sortof the 0.8mhz David against the 3.5mhz Goliath .. what a difference a videochip can make huh .. anyway, I wanted this stuff in sc3 actually some months ago.. but sc3 is such a lame-ass screen that my initial (realtime) ideas couldn't be done at a reasonable performance.. (think 16fps and higher... Sphere is ~ 29fps ! )
If some geek back then didn't mess-up the way sc3 was built-up it could have had a huge potential..
As written in the newspost.. it's an engine.. once it's completely polished and tuned, I can do tons of stuff like this .. ^_^
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| By snout on October 12 2004, 15:22 | Just out of curiosity.... are you going to RELEASE this engine + tools as well?
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| By wolf_ on October 12 2004, 15:24 | No plans in that direction yet.. and the tool works on my system for now.. it's not fully done etc. ... lotof side-tools required. It was more or less done in a hurry ..
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| By GuyveR800 on October 12 2004, 15:31 | A very non-MSX scene demo idd...
Nicely done, although it gives me a very 'brute force' feeling with those system requirements.
And by the way, a C64 CPU is ~1MHz (0.985 MHz PAL, 1.023 MHz NTSC), so that's already 23% faster
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| By wolf_ on October 12 2004, 15:40 | As far as I know, the animation ran fine @ 3.5mhz ... but then we added a 24ch MBWave-tune
uhm.. *don't shoot the pianoplayer*
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| By GuyveR800 on October 12 2004, 15:43 | BTW, the reason non-MSX sceners are not so impressed with our demos, IMO is because their systems are so different.
Most systems are little more than a framebuffer (C64, Amiga, PC, etc), with fast random VRAM access to it.
MSX has a video co-processor with lots of screenmodes, allows a lot of raster tricks, and the pipe to VRAM is narrow, so the center of attention is shifted.
Personally I like the MSX style demos more, because they are technically complicated, while demos on other platforms are more a matter of graphic design and pixel pushing...
That said, there's still a lot possible that has not been done before on MSX2!
Take into account turboR and V9958, and a whole new world opens. (VDP commands in SC3/4, horizontal scrolling, 2 page scrolling, screen 10)
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| By NYYRIKKI on October 12 2004, 16:30 | Althought the demo looks simply awesome (because Wolf really knows how to make music and music is syncronized with animation) at the moment MSX side of the engine seems pretty basic: pallette change, troughput to VRAM and playlists, but what else it contains? PC to MSX Converter etc? Is there going to be more MSX functionality? Tell us more... :-)
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| By Abi on October 12 2004, 16:50 | it's nice but running it in R800 mode it stops loading after inserting my 2nd disk and loading a while(error line 50 or something?).
in Z80 mode it works ok for me.
And can i run this demo from CF card also?
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| By Abi on October 12 2004, 16:52 | after started the demo in Z80 mode it uses it's R800 for demo.
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| By wolf_ on October 12 2004, 16:58 | Uhm indeed.. the 4m player is quite simple .. but for the moment it has to stay that way.. we're already having arguements with mr.CPU .. depends on the complexity of the frames however. Perhaps we could enhance certain parts .. but I bet it would cost me my channels
But complex or not.. I think a demo should be 'amusing' to watch.. who cares whether it's state-of-the-art code, or something simple? If it's amusing to watch then we're done.. simple as that. First creativity, then code-skills
*Wolf_ hides for an army of coders ready to slap with the mighty tunas* 
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| By GuyveR800 on October 12 2004, 17:20 | Abi, in R800 mode there's not enough RAM, because of the DRAM mirroring.
So you have to start in Z80 mode (keep 1 pressed) and the demo will switch to R800 ROM mode itself.
As for Wolf's comment about what a demo should be like, that's simply a different point of view...
A demo designed by a code artist turns out different than one designed by a graphic artist or music artist.
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| By NYYRIKKI on October 12 2004, 17:49 |
I didn't mean to be rude. We have seen so many technical demos, that artistic ones are more than welcome! I also think, that this engine gives good looking result.
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| By snout on October 12 2004, 19:20 | And, indeed Chaos: Musica rulez! Too bad I didn't have the time to polish the main song as much as I wanted to do. It had to do with less variation than initially planned
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| By BiFi on October 12 2004, 19:21 | Unfortunately, due to last-minute things there was no time to test it properly in DOS2 without crossing the final deadline. That's the reason why it gives an error when DOS2 is used. Using MAP.COM (or MAP.BIN) solves the error but locks on demo start.
An update will be released in the near future solving this problem. Meanwhile, enjoy the demo in DOS1 and sorry for the inconvenience.
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| By Maggoo on October 12 2004, 20:43 | Is there a problem with the archive ? I get a CRC error every time I decompress it and bad file mode when I execute sphere.ldr
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| By snout on October 12 2004, 20:44 | Which program do you use for decompression? It seems to work fine with WinRAR (www.rarlabs.com/)
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| By Maggoo on October 12 2004, 20:47 | I use Ultimate Zip
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| By dvik on October 12 2004, 21:06 | The archive decompresses fine in ZipZag as well...
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| By NYYRIKKI on October 13 2004, 00:06 | No problem with PMEXT...
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| By Maggoo on October 13 2004, 07:41 | Got it right with winrar at last... Fantastic demo !
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| By dvik on October 13 2004, 18:35 | This demo is a masterpiece ! I've been watching this demo about 50 times by now and I'm still as impressed as I was the first time I saw it. It really brings a new dimension to the MSX demo scene (even though for example the MSX1 Aekrus demo has a 3d vector city but it is not the same...).
Another thing that makes this demo so great is the incredible timing between audio and video. This is also quite unique on the MSX scene. The music shifts between the different parts but the transisions are really smooth. My favorite shifts are when the poem starts and when the city part starts.
There are a thousand more reasons why this demo is a masterpiece but I can't write them all. Gotta go to work now.
Congratulations and good luck. This also goes to the other entries which are of very high quality as well.
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| By wolf_ on October 13 2004, 18:56 | ^^; infinite blushes now
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| By ro on October 14 2004, 13:48 | so euh, does this demo bounce in anyway? (since I haven't seen it, only read about it)
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| By chaos on October 14 2004, 14:12 | ít shouldn't be that hard to get it running in openmsx.
-use the turbo R gt emulation (with 512KB ram)
-only insert a moonsound card
-insert sphere1.dsk, and start sphere.ldr
-watch the intro, after the wolf-picture wait till the loading has stopped (you can see this in catapult)
-insert disk 2 and press a key
this must work!
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| By ccfg on October 14 2004, 18:13 | Some very nice animations and music. Impressive work!
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| By Grauw on October 14 2004, 20:45 | /me is finally putting back his MSX on his desk
I gotta see this ^_^
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| By Grauw on October 14 2004, 22:08 | Damn... loading takes a while I can't wait for this to work from my CF-IDE (wonder how much it will matter).
But heh... aaawweeessooooommee dudes! Whoa...
The music has some slowdowns though (MSX2 @ 7MHz)... that intentional? Also the square tunnel has a frame which looks a bit messed up, and at the end it seems to crash with a black 'a' on white background. Or is that artistic as well?? Damn, you never know with them 'art people' .
~Grauw
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| By GuyveR800 on October 14 2004, 22:14 | For slowdowns, blame Remco S.
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| By wolf_ on October 14 2004, 22:20 | tempo 19 all the way .. for slowdowns contact RS
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| By Ivan on October 15 2004, 09:33 | Argghhh!!! I tried to run the demo but my MoonSound "only" has 128kB.
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| By wolf_ on October 15 2004, 10:33 | 512k s-ram == ~ 30 euro
(don't forget to piggyback in case of v1 moonsound!)
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| By Ivan on October 15 2004, 12:58 | Is that chip widely available (in electronics shops)?
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| By wolf_ on October 15 2004, 13:59 | you can order them @ Sunrise .. just send an email to Rob Hiep ..
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| By Ivan on October 15 2004, 18:12 | Yes, but 30 € + shipping costs from NL to ES is quite expensive. I suppose that those chips are available in electronics shops, or not?
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| By wolf_ on October 15 2004, 19:06 | ah ok.. uh .. dunno a thing 'bout hardware ..
anyone here?
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| By sunrise on October 15 2004, 20:30 | The price of sram has been reduced to 25 euro at the moment.
Ivan , it is not expensive into the first place and you never find it in any electronic shop around the corner. Plus sending is not that expensive also since it weights a few grams would be I think max 3 euro
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