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| | | | Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:02 Submitted by: wolf_ Topic: Photo shoots | | From September the 7th until September the 8th the meeting MSX Rio 2007 was being organized. The website Icongames has put a photo shoot from this event online. Of particular interest is a section of photos from the VDU prototype, a combined videocard for MSX which is created out of four V9958 chips. As this VDU is thus made out of 4 discrete MSX2+ chips, the net result is that one could do games with true scrolling multilayers, or even plot a text screen over graphic screens! There are a few interesting screen shots with examples of those situations, definitely worth a visit!
Other photos show Jungle Hunt, Montezuma’s Revenge and the not previously announced Transylvania 3 - a text adventure converted from PC to MSX1.
Relevant link: MSX Rio 2007 photoshoot
***update*** A short but impressive video of the VDU prototype in action has been placed on YouTube!
Relevant link: Video on YouTube
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 11:11 | VDU = great concept, someone ought to vid it and put some of those games on youtube! 
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| By manuel on September 10 2007, 12:53 | Yeah. But, isn't V9990 very close to VDU?  Everyone buy a GFX9000!
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 13:02 | I can imagine that 4 individual SC12 layers makes more impression than 2 SC5'ish layers.. only diff would be the sprites, the VRAM amount and another handful o' stuff.
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| By SLotman on September 10 2007, 15:36 | Believe it or not, Oazem will study the possibility of putting a V9990 somewhere in the VDP chain 
But even SCR5 pictures are impressive... you have 16 colors for each VDP, so you get 64 colors on screen! PLUS, you can have 8 16x16 sprites per line on each VDP!
On the meeting, Oazem ran Aleste, with a big "MSX Rio" picture on top of it!
I tried to make some short videos, but havent check them yet...
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 17:24 | at your service..
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 17:36 | Still I wonder about the following things:
- The V9958 never was a truly fast chip like the G9k is, and with 4 of 'em the cpu load also increases I guess. Even while scrolling is done by the V9958 itself, if each layer is built-up using a map, one has to read out 4 of those maps, and that's still somewhat of a cycles-killer I think. (?)
- While it all looks interesting, and perhaps even more impressive than a g9k, how about production of these on an average large scale, is he up to that?
- Are there still plenty V9958 chips available to do all that for averagely large quantities?
- Can all of 'm be crammed in a normal cartridge (let's say, G9k-size carts)
- Is there any way in which sprites of the 4 'layers' can interact?
- Can a coder move VRAM contents from one V9958 to another? E.G. would one truly have 512KB of VRAM available (with some bankswitching perhaps?)?
However, it still looks fun.. imagine this scenario for a shooter:
Layer1: stars/galaxy
Layer2: level
Layer3: large boss which is just an image scrolling into all directions
Layer4: player+bullets+sprites
Could look quite impressive if you ask me. But it also introduces just the sprite situation here, I suspect all the sprites are still only on 1 layer, so while the other 3 layers have sprites as well, for interaction they might not be practical. Otoh, They could provide a black outline, with the colored body of a sprite is on the front/sprite layer. Then you have at least one essential sprite on the collision layer and still profit a bit from the extra sprites. Still, using that trick there're 8 functional sprites on a row max..
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 17:46 | heh, about this for a fun scenario:
In UU we did sprite switching so that with flickering sprites we had about 8 of 'em on a row. Only the 9th sprite would really disappear. One could do the same on the "sprite layer" and have backup sprites on the other layers -on the same spot- so that there's never any flickering visible (if a sprite is hidden you simply see the same sprite in another layer). You kinda get 16 sprites on a row then, if your game update is 25/30 fps. Sofar I see advantages of this development!
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| By SLotman on September 10 2007, 18:23 | Why would you want "sprite interaction"? for games, the sprite collision thing should be avoided since it's not accurate. Unless you mean the trick to OR sprites color on top of each other, I dont see any other usefull "sprite interaction"...
Also, color 0,0,0 is transparent - so you can safely use HMMM instead of LMMM on the other VDPs... pretty damn fast "sprites" if you ask me
As for more VRAM, that's one of the things Oazem still wants to implement, he's just haven't decided yet how it's going to be.
AS for "production"... calm down guys, it's just a prototype yet
(But a pretty good one, even if he didnt add anything else heh)
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| By wolf_ on September 10 2007, 18:47 | sprite interaction means: collision detection. So, can a sprite on layer4 generate a collision with a sprite on layer1?
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| By SLotman on September 10 2007, 19:14 | I dont think it does that - but you shouldnt use sprite collision flag anyway... you should use bounding volumes for collision tests
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| By Edwin on September 10 2007, 20:44 | Quote:
| In UU we did sprite switching so that with flickering sprites we had about 8 of 'em on a row. Only the 9th sprite would really disappear.
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Whatever gave you that idea? More sprites is more flicker.
Otherwise. I had a discussion about this concept a while back. More with the idea of duplicating the v9938 code in the 1chipMSX. But this is just another level. Doing this with a couple of v9990's would be quite insane.
Controlling it becomes a bit tricky though. I'm afraid our poor z80 won't be able to keep up with four v9938 chips to the really cool stuff. The turbo R should do nicely though.
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| By ARTRAG on September 11 2007, 10:07 | z80 will become the bottleneck, as I/O load is times 4, never the less,
having all those scrolling registers opens amazing possibilities 
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| By ARTRAG on September 11 2007, 13:16 | Can it be integrated on the 1CHIP MSX?
Also having only two VDP in overlay would be very nice.
even one V9928 + one V9958 could open new scenarios
BTW
where is the European edition of the 1chip?
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| By Prodatron on September 12 2007, 00:22 | This parallax stuff looks really cool!
Quote:
| Are there still plenty V9958 chips available to do all that for averagely large quantities?
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Ok, yes, and what's about the V9990? Both chips probably aren't produced anymore, right? So how can you still get them?
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| By Imanok on September 12 2007, 10:31 |
Did you mean Goblin??
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| By Ivan on September 13 2007, 23:36 |
Impressive graphics and scroll!
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| By Sd-Snatcher on September 14 2007, 03:20 | YESSSSSSSS
Quote:
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GOBLIN, Twin VDP cartridge
[UPDATE 20th, June, 1997]
This translations comes from the article written by NAM, in Weekly Syntax #22. Special thanks to NAM, Hideki Imamura, Katsuo Shiroi, and Katsunobu Tamaki. Click here, and you can see a photo of GOBLIN.
* What is GOBLIN?
GOBLIN is the name of the cartridge which is based on a Twin VDP system standard advocated by Do-RAGONSOFTWORK.
* What is Twin VDP System?
D0-RAGONSOFTWORK thought up this system to make the graphics power of msx much better. GOBLIN has V9958 as same as MSX2+ or turboR, and can mix its graphics and MSX's.
This standard is a free license. Whoever can make or sell products based on it.
* What you need to use GOBLIN
MSX(MSX1,MSX2,MSX2+,MSXturboR) with output of analog RGB
CRT with input analog RGB
A1ST, A1GT, A1WX.HB-F1XV, HB-F900, HB-T600, WAVY77 have already been confirmed that they can use GOBLIN.
* What GOBLIN can do
Indicating 64 sprites in a screen.
Indicating 16 sprites in a line.
Mixing normal sprites and magnified ones.
Mixing two different screen mode, for example SCREEN0 and SCREEN5
Scrolling two different direction.
In the case of turboR, GOBLIN's VDP is faster than tR's because of no wait.
You can develop utilities of GOBLIN without it.
* What kind of software will be offered
GOBLIN BASIC, extended MSX BASIC
Game, "Tobidase Daisaku," or "Fly out, Daisaku"
* When you can get it, how much?
GOBLIN will be for sale in summer, 1998.
It'll cost about 20,000yen
* How you can get more information
You can ask any questions via mail.
Masayuki Nakamura
Mizudocho 1-23-12, Amagasaki City, Hyogo, Zip661, Japan
Caution: You must attach a reply postal card for him with your inquiry.
Specifications may be improved because this article was written about a trial product.
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http://www.nodus.ne.jp/~ghost/msx/emsxnews_old.htm
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| By ARTRAG on September 14 2007, 15:58 | so, now the questions about this grpx card (but it holds also for goblin card):
1) any emulator implementing this HW?
2) do exits any SW using it?
3) will the HW be available for sell ?
I assume NO to all of them
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| By Sd-Snatcher on September 14 2007, 16:26 | well there are other posibilities to build something similar for example the panasonic telopper, it have an external v9938 too.
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| By SLotman on September 14 2007, 20:06 | Quote:
| 1) any emulator implementing this HW?
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Not for now... but if anyone wants to implement it, it will be pretty easy -- just listening to port 95h to switch VDPs.
Quote:
| 2) do exits any SW using it?
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You can use it on BASIC, if that counts for something (those scrolls on the demos were made in BASIC!) - And since you just have to do an OUT to select which VDP you will use (or all of them at once!), shouldn't be a problem to have stuff working
Think about this: Every MSX1 game with background color 0,0,0 can now have a static screen 12 background, with just a couple of OUT's
Quote:
| 3) will the HW be available for sell ?
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Well, it's a prototype for now, it all depends upon Oazem. But before even going there, he wants to improve it even more
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| By nikodr on September 16 2007, 16:48 | One question.Wouldn't four v9958 be a BIG obstacle for a 3.58mhz z80 ?
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| By SLotman on September 16 2007, 18:47 | Didnt you see those videos? It was a z80 3.5mhz doing all that... in BASIC
Usually most of the "slow" part is caused by the VDP (and it's waits) - so instead of waiting, you can now write to another VDP
Of course with R800/7Mhz more impressive stuff can be achieved, but even with normal Z80, you can do a lot of good stuff
Hmmmm... maybe we should move this discussion to the foruns? Anyone interested in keep debating about this?
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| By wolf_ on September 16 2007, 19:00 | Yes, we can continue here!
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| By manuel on September 16 2007, 20:58 | But ehm, if you're combining VDP's anyway, why not combine V9958 with V9990? That's also lots of power. In principle, the V9990 can be superimposed with the V9958.
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