First of all: there are little forum threads I consider to be 'arguments'. Latok, our moderator has quite an 'anything goes' policy and I think that's necessary to allow interesting discussions and developments to start. When the forums started to get active we received one or two comments from some people, agreed things could get out of hands and put up the forum policy. Since then we never heard complaints about the discussions on MRC getting too rude or offensive.

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I make a thread for a MSX page, and while the discussion eventhough i wasn't ADVERTISING, the link are renamed to " {link removed} and i am called a WAREZ page like a if i was a Warez HQ...

If you had read the links I submitted, you would have noticed we did exactly the same thing when JEames asked for help. We respect and like your idea of setting up a website dedicated to MSX Music, our forum offers you the opportunity to search for likeminded people and form a team. I can tell from experience it's a lot more fun, working with a team on a website, than just on your own. But as soon as you link to a website which is loaded with copyrighted material (which I -do- consider to be warez) that link will be removed. Even if you mention the link as an example. We do this because

- We feel copying games played an importand role in destroying the commercial MSX software market.
- Our website gets visited by ASCII, MSX Association, Konami, Falcom, Aiky/Compile, etc. etc. officials on a regular basis. We care a lot about our website and don't want to risk getting sued (or getting fellow MSXers sued) because of a small part of its contents. If you want to know, yes, we were on the edge a couple of times already.
- In Japan people are trying hard to make an MSX revival happen. EGG is already commercially selling MSX games and has over 10.000 regular customers. Even though everyone in Europe is sceptical about the MSX Revival, one can not deny that interesting things are happening in Japan.

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that's not something to say to someone that put great effort in his site

Despite all the efforts you put into the website, it does not make the contents of it more legal. THAT's what this discussion is all about.

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Did you ever happen to see us advertising here ? Or bugging people on the forum ?

No, and please don't start now. You know what will happen

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If you aren't pleased with my remakes don't make news about them, i never enforced anyone to post news about them.

We are very pleased with your music remakes. That's why we report about them on our frontpage. Looking through all posts you got a lot of positive reactions (most newsposts don't even get reactions) and just one negative one, which was not aimed at you personally, but to the MRC webmasters who are giving you this much attention. Like Sander stated. There's no pennie with a crown next to GuyveR's posts and that's for a reason: he's not part of our team.

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Remember when the Msx.org was lacking host and was forced offline ? who came on the irc #msx channel to seek someone from MRC to offer free space on our server to help keeping the site alive ? It was me !

I'm not saying you're evil, or that everything you do is wrong. We like your support! We love your music! We hope you'll continue developing (legal) MSX websites, music and (related) games. But we do not like the contents of the website of which we removed the links in this forum thread.

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You listen to suggestions ? ok ! Browse this forum and see how many ranting and useless arguing there is...

You certainly see a lot more of ranting going on than I do. I see normal, sometimes heated discussions. When I look at the forums I also see the birth of an OPL4 version of Meridian, the origins of a new MSX emulator for Nokia Series 60 mobile phones, the start of the 20th anniversary demo, etc. etc. etc.

Getting back on the original subject: I really like the idea of a website dedicated to MSX Music. In our downloads database we will only host music files that can be played on real MSX computers. From the looks of it, both MrRudi and Ro were enthousiastic about helping you. I've seen some Ro PHP skills and uhm... I'm impressed. But please, do keep things legal. And don't say MSX is dead, don't pretend copyrights don't exist. Our website - and especially the MSX Revival news archive - proves you wrong on that one.

May I add to the little (completely uninteresting) discussion that publishing remakes off exisiting music is not exactly legal either? Not that I see that as a big deal (doh, look at all the music I did) but is a fact. Luckily no-one ever complained about it, but mp3.com for example refused the arranger page without written permission from the original authors.

Anyway, the bottom issue was that "abandonwarez" do not exist, it's a term made up to make it sound legal. But it is not, and I never had a problem with *not* mentioning any rom download pages here. Being a gamedeveloper myself I'm pretty much anti-warez non-stop. If I could buy some MSX originals in the store I would, I recently bought Dragonslayer IV en VI on eBay since I played those games so much I felt it was only fair to buy them. For games that are absolutely no longer available I really don't care about having roms of them, but I wouldn't promote it either.

And about the question why I would make my music available to a host that also hosts a big rom site: since I want my music to be heard by as many interested people as possible.

Ok, i took the time to read all your reactions, now lemme answer accurately and please read carefuly :

Snout Wrote :
J-War - I removed the links to your server as it's loaded with warez. If you had checked our policy, our forum policy and this thread you would have known you were way out of line.

In the community where i belong, the word " Warez " is used mainly as an insult, it design massive game " copying ", " ripping ", " Dumping ", " Hardware & Bios Hacking ", 3 Modding " and " Soft spreading " using every available way.

By reading carefuly what Snout wrote next it appeared to me he didn't want to be that offensive and he might not have used Warez in such an insulting way. (at least i hope)

Seeing everyone so kind, tolerant and quiet with OmegaMSX, was what makes me over react a bit since there is 3Gb of msx file on Funet which is 4x more than what we have on our website. I realy though it wasn't fair to see everyone pointing a finger only toward me like that

Latok Wrote :
J-War, I am glad you made your statement. And msx.org respects this statement. But we don't see copyrighted MSX material as abandonware or vintage, as you name it. Especially considering the new interest in Japan in the MSX system and its software, msx.org believes we should respect the copyrights on MSX software. Hopefully, you can understand this policy.

What will follow is not for you directly Latok, it's for everyone, ok

I do agree with you latok but this copyright respect thingie is quite discutable !
Most of you here used roms (if not many) and you still use a lot, i see your discussions on Irc or the Forums, i have friends, i see how most ppl live... Of course you'll all claim you're different, by experience i am used with that

Some of you even share PC, Mac or other stuffs... And, Oh my god, there must be some of you that listen to Mp3 musics... the list is long !

Some of you are collector, like me, and tend to own some originals. (This is my case i have an huge collection of originals here on all systems)
Some of you even if it's realy rare, don't use roms at all for various reasons. Actualy it would be realy fun to see how honest people are with this copyright infridgement thingie

Because of that, and the poor amount of people respecting the " Electronic " laws it is quite hypocrite and easy to flame me... Check your harddrives, your copied cds...

Even if we all know some of you won't NEVER be honest enough to admit it... You're not in right position to give me lessons

Unfortunately, hypocrisy is often the recurent word when having this kind of discussion.

MrRudi Wrote :
And J-War, I agree that funet links shouldn't be placed here either. Dead system or not, copyrights are still in place, we should at least keep MRC clean of warez promotion. Oh and please read Latok's response, and skip Guyver's reaction...he's a tad overemotional about a lot of things (imesho).

I don't realy agree, keep it there, and just carry on like if it wasn't there, just like you've done 'till now... This is what will allow user to still gather their beloved games, progs and all that sort of things. It is very important to not let these files disapear.

Msx files where alway kind of centralized on funet, no need to change that. Files preservation is one of the right and most IMPORTANT concept IMHO.

And you have there one of the very first reason i've done my site.
All the files you can downloaded from our web are VERIFIED dumps, correctly renamed and sorted. All team that worked during years on these collection did it for collecting and preservation purposes. Actualy when you d/l a file from us don't have to ensure it was properly dumped and remain untouched anymore
.
Yeah, i know you don't care about my point, because... Well... how GuyveR800 called me already ? Ah yeah : " You're just a w4R32d00D who doesn't care and disrespect the MSX scene. "

After all i might not deserve to be listened, as i am a w4R32d00D who doesn't care and disrespect the MSX scene

Sander Wrote :
Problem is also the fact that there is renewed interest in the system from Japan. There are a lot of interesting developments coming from Japan these days, and there probably will come more.

Seriously, may i have some clues ? No kidding there, i realy don't see what is happening in japan. I might not be up do date, seriously.

Will japanese people will share all of this with us, unlike they always used to do ?
There are still exceptions but well those are just exceptions... like T. Suzukawa and some other guys who shared a lot with us ! (us = rest of the world)

Sander Wrote :
BTW: We feel that msx.org is also the place for downloading demo´s, MSX related music and games (legal ones)
Strange to see, that no one answers our calls for help on an already existing platform, but rather invent the wheel again. Ah well.

I've already answered that on another hot thread, you all should realy consider my point of vue, you know, i might not be totaly wrong.

Sander Wrote :
We like your rearrangements, see it as some support and hopefully it will make you see that if you put some effort in legal things, more people will enjoy it.

Sander, that is totaly consensual and therefor inadmissible

It's better for your soul! And it keeps the advocates away in the long run..
There, you are totaly right, and i agree.

I'm sure you put a lot of effort in your "dead system software" site, fact is that it isn't your software, and that copyrights still apply. People who steal cars probably put a lot of effort to get in such a car and start it, still most other people don't like those efforts, except the stolen car buyers or, in your case the leechers...

We could debate, cause it's realy not that simple. We could discuss it during hours without finding any winner.
Although it's realy sad and disapointing you have the same regard for me as to a vulgar car robber

Bart Wrote :
For me, and me only, it's simple. I greatly respect your medleys and arrangments, but I have not a single bit of respect for a ROM site.

Ok, there is nothing i can do about it, but what you say is quite rude for OmegaMSX and TFH
(Btw remember your previous sentence when you'll get roms for some reasons)

Sander Wrote :
BTW: I really don't understand the people here who want their music published on on of the top 3 rom sites on the net. I personally wouldn't want to connect my name with it, maybe times have changed indeed. But then, I'm only good at doing some progressive music accoording to some people.

There isn't a single link on http://www.j-war.com pointing to www.[censured].com ! Also there isn't a single link on www.[censured].com pointing to http://www.j-war.com. Not a single word ! Nothing.

Snout Wrote :
Like Sander stated. There's no pennie with a crown next to GuyveR's posts and that's for a reason: he's not part of our team.

Because of its authoritaire and near aggressive attitude and as he was always persuaded to be the one that was right, i realy though he was the boss of MRC or some ultra leet team member.

By the way, I agree with the rest of the last post you made Snout. (first on the 3rd page)

---- Final Words ----

- I now think i have over reacted a bit to Snout's post, and in this case i'll apologize. Could you confirm it Snout or did you intentionaly wanted to hurt me ?

Of course i'll take care to not put links that are agains your policy.

- Sometimes some of you guys almost frightened me, that was like " Hey, We're MRC, MSX NOT DEAD ! YOU HEAR ME ? " " WHAT ? A PC REMAKE ? You morron, all your skills and ideas belongs to MSX the way we decided it's the best, HOW DARE YOU ? " "If it's not MSX THEN IT'S GAY "...

Hahahahahaha, i wuz joking of course... well almost...

Seriously maybe some of you are too much involved in MSX, you should get some distance sometimes.

Well now let's put a end to all of this...
Will we have this gangbang or not finaly ?

Very Best Regards

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By reading carefuly what Snout wrote next it appeared to me he didn't want to be that offensive and he might not have used Warez in such an insulting way. (at least i hope)

Well, I'm not considering you a major threat to world peace I'm glad to see both you, me (and probably the others too) have cooled down a bit. There are only few things I'd like to react to. So here goes:

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Most of you here used roms (if not many) and you still use a lot, i see your discussions on Irc or the Forums, i have friends, i see how most ppl live... Of course you'll all claim you're different, by experience i am used with that

I can safely say my hands aren't/weren't clean on this one. I can also safely say I have about 50 original MSX games and own the MCCM CD's (and thus a lot of still copyrighted software) legally.

But, even if the MRC Crew members themselves were loaded with ROMs.... our foundation (which was raised a year ago) isn't. With that, our website is 'clean' as well. Since we care a lot about the future of our ever growing website we don't want to put it at risk at all. I hope you think differently about "Unfortunately, hypocrisy is often the recurent word when having this kind of discussion" now.

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Files preservation is one of the right and most IMPORTANT concept IMHO.

One of the reasons for our freeware downloads database as well. A few days ago we were blamed for destroying the software market because of that. I think offering copyrighted games for download created by amateurs, offering games for download that are being sold by EGG are far more destructive. It's probably one of the main reasons Konami doesn't want to release their old games at EGG. (Although I'm not sure on this one).

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Seriously, may i have some clues ? No kidding there, i realy don't see what is happening in japan. I might not be up do date, seriously.

There are serious attempts of reviving the MSX computer system in Japan and so far it's been a success. EGG is selling old MSX games like Daiva, Zanac, Golvellius etc. etc. and has about 10.000 regular customers. Over 30.000 people bought MSX Magazine 1 which comes with the official and fully legal MSX Emulator MSXPLAYer (what's more legal about it compared to other emulators is the fact MSX Association is allowed to spread MSX System ROMs). A new Magazine (with contents about MSX in Europe and Brazil, and even software from 'amateurs ) will be released later this year. Also, a USB ROM Cartridge reader allows you to connect real cartridges to your PC and play them in MSXPLAYer. Furthermore an educational project, MSX-BASIC for Robo-Education, won an important price and is to be used on many many many Japanese schools. THat's about all the public news available. Keep track of our frontpage, there will be more and more interesting news soon.

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Will japanese people will share all of this with us, unlike they always used to do ?

MSX Association have often stated Microsoft is the problem in this one. Last year the MSX Association was only capable of getting a license for disitributing the MSX System ROMs (which contain Microsoft copyrighted MSX-BASIC) in Japan. Step by step, things are looking better and better. It's not in my hands, but I think and hope the near future will bring some good news for us.

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I now think i have over reacted a bit to Snout's post, and in this case i'll apologize. Could you confirm it Snout or did you intentionaly wanted to hurt me ?

I'm not that cruel

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Seriously maybe some of you are too much involved in MSX, you should get some distance sometimes.

Well, I still think the most active MSX discussion forums are the last place where you should say 'Hey, MSX is dead anyway'. Dunno in what thread I said it but I thought I put a smiley after that sentence as well .

I love it when people make up and speak out Thank you all

Group hug!!!

(/me hides )

like some one once said: yadayadayadaaaa.

It's kinda funny, kinda stupid too. We, as MSX users, are just a couple of hypocrite ppl.
Didn't we just copy all games we could get a grip off? (well, except Konami games which were fun to collect (the original eh).. ahum)
And didn't we ALL just downloaded every single ROM/DSK file there is to be found from the net? yes we did. no doubt. And don't we just love warez sites? yes we do! Can anyone say 'I've got a PC with ONLY original software' ? don't think so.
(or atleast 99% of all users)

There ya go.
(yeah, yeah I tend to shout too much. Deal with it) ... . . J-war, I'm with you all along. But do respect policies of any host. gotta live with it.
-end of file-

Snout, dude, if you'd know me by know you know I just love to flame/rant/stirr up things a bit. lol. The download section of MRC is not so appealing and there's no info etc. thaz why it sux. But ofcourse we all love to download (even warez, YES WE DO )

btw. Genereation MSX has already done a great deal of database filling. Much info on everything you ever need'n stuff.
(drug r bad n'kay)

now, back to the topic?!

Can I make an addition to this whole copy-issue? Of course we all copy, I could be sued 1000 times for illegal stuff. But! Everyone is a little bit of a Jekyll & Hide, don't you think? And that's a good thing!

In my profession, I have to behave in a certain way. This behaviour serves the public cause. The way I act in my spare time, in my hours off, isn't always in the same line as my work behaviour But that's simply the way society works. You should recognize this phenomenon. If not, then you're sad I mean, even Bill Gates copies, I tell ya.

I hope you guyz see that the MSX Resource Center is this place where we should act in a professional way. Have high moral standards and stuff. It serves the MSX cause!!

Please don't attack MSX Resource Center Foundation as an institute with arguments which are based on personal behaviour by MRC-crewmembers. That's just not fair and you simply neglect the difference between MSX Resource Center Foundation as an institute and its crewmembers as 'normal' living creatures.

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Because of its authoritaire and near aggressive attitude and as he was always persuaded to be the one that was right, i realy though he was the boss of MRC or some ultra leet team member.

Nope, that's just me
MSX is something I care for deeply and I'll defend it with all my power if need be.

Some people like to crucify me (*cough*hanso*cough*) for my attitude, but in reality I'm a really helpful guy and I will go out of my way to help a fellow MSX'er.

About the MSX Revival, you can read all newsposts on the revival here: http://www.msx.org/topic5.html

About PC remakes, I simply believe we owe it to MSX to create more fun on it, for all the fun it has given us. And ofcourse there's the challenge of doing it.

Sorry for calling you a warezdude, I had no idea the term had such a negative meaning for you. But the fact remains that by distributing illegal MSX software on your ROM site, you're killing part of the MSX Revival, just like piracy killed MSX in europe.

Thanks for your last posts dudes.
If the other ppl of this community that have MSX roms site/ftp servers accept to remove the roms of the games that are ACTUALY being re-sold, i'll do the same and will remove little by little all actual and future games roms that are sold to prevent piracy.

Hah Snout plz excuse me. I promised to apologize

Now we've been introduced to each other and now everything's solved, let's return to work.

I need to know who is still interested in helping me making this MSX Music Page with me using my server.

Reminder :
I need ppl with good PHP and/or MySQL and/or Perl knowledges and that sort of things... It will be absolutely needed !

The main goal is to fully cover MSX musics...
- MSX Music in MSX format for real MSX
- MSX Music covers/remakes/arrange and whatever you want to call them for every format...
- MSX Demo Songs...
- MSX Progs
- Technical Docs with specs for SCC, SCC2/+ (whatever you want to call it)

We won't put everything directly while starting... All will have to be built carefuly and there's a lot brainstorming to achieve.

It's not the topic to actualy explain why MSX musics where that good, i'll get into it later, the most important thing is they deserve it.

Actualy ppl that are interested MUST have enough free time to get involved into it... I don't want to be stucked with ppl that are always " ok for all " finaly and always overloaded.

Ro, are you still in ?

J-War, please start another thread WHY MSX MUSIC indeed is so magical. Because it is. And it's something very weird.

not only MSX music is magical, MSX is magical, period

Magical Super Xtasy

yup, still with ya JW

I've got some ideas myself (would that be a surprise?!), and even a bigger plan..
but I will do some PHP/MySQL code for you, sure.

I think you, J-war, should make a strategic and technical plan (including, layout etc. etc) so I and the others could simply contribute to the whole.
I always into making overlay systems/uniform routines. Thaz some tech shit which should be documented in your plan.

BUT, I will ONLY do some coding 'coz of other activities I have to maintain.
Just grand your wishes, and we'll do the rest.

peace out.

gimme you email addy plz

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gimme you email addy plz

roman at chello dot nl