Mäsäxi: Did you have Amstrad CPC in Finland? And MTX too?
Bloody hell, why do you Finns get all the computers? I bet you even got MSX2...

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That's funny, because MSX2 was actually the most innovative computer system when it was released, and miles ahead of the competition. (Although Amiga, released later, came close, it's no cigar.)

What exactly was so innovative about a Z80 system with good graphics?
When it comes to innovative computer systems, the Amiga beats everything hands down. It had everything the competitors ever had, and a lot else as well.

I think that the MSX could have been a much bigger success had it been released with MSX2 specs from the beginning. The MSX was caught between the dirt-cheap Speccy and the over-performing Commie. It was absolutely identical to the already established Spectravideo, and it failed to add anything to the market save two things: standardisation and a good BASIC. Other machines (see above) had already established a foothold on the market, others had already lost theirs, and the MSX, lacking such rudimentary features as scrolling, failed to impress buyers, both spec-wise (worse than a C64) and price-wise (same price range as C64). It was, just like the Amstrad CPC, a nice compromise; addressing the problems of competitors, but too conservative in its design.
An MSX2 in 1983-ish (it wasn't really available to the public then, AFAICT) would have humbled the C64 in many aspects, which was the absolute necessity to even begin carving out a position in the same category, and would have compared favourably to the new generation of 8-bitters like the Enterprise (which failed miserably, but that's another story).

Summa summarum: You can't compete with Commodore unless you're dirt cheap, and no Sony/Philips/Matsushita funding will do any good against Commodore discounts and aggressive marketing.

Yes, of course we had Amstrad CPC 464 here in Finland and 664 too, if I am not completely wrong. Amstrad had really lovely looking keyboard! And Memotech was one of my favourite dream computers too in 80´s, but just in my dreams... :´( I only saw it on magazines and sometimes in the shops I guess... when I got my dad ready enough to buy me a computer in 1987, then poor Memotech was dying already... Of course there were many more computers in Finland too... thought not all you had there in "Big World"... we were living in the edge of the Europe....

and of course we got msx2 here too...! but don´t get too silly about it... MSX2 was reviewed in finnish "Mikrobitti" computer magazine in number 6-7/1986. But really... only a few MSX2s came to Finland in 80´s... I tried to get me a one in the 80´s but those software/computer companies didn´t had any possibility to do it.... or that they said... I talked with one seller guy, which was going to trip to USA to find CHEAP msx2s (he told me: "that because msx was failed in america, it can´t cost much there..." , but I never heard of that guy again...

You seem to have had more than we ever had. In Sweden, Commodore was bigger than christianity, fending off all alien brands before they reached our shores.

IOW, the only MSX2 references I've found in Svenska hemdatornytt are to people who bought SVI738s and brought them to Denmark in order to have them rebuilt into MSX2.

Haven't read all the previous replies...

I think if MSX2 had been the MSX SYSTEM, we'd be stuck with a non-growing system, just like Commodore 64. You can't call an Amiga 500 its successor because it lacks the 100% downward compatibility with the C64. The only real new feature in MSX2+ is the new VDP with 2 extra display modes and 3 extra registers.

To stay ahead of people going like MSX2+ has 3 new display modes: SCREEN 10 and SCREEN 11 are 100% identical when it comes to VDP mode settings. Only difference is how BASIC handles each of them. In BASIC SCREEN 10 is handled like a SCREEN 5+ mode (256x212x16 out of a palette of 512 colors) and has only two pages (like SCREEN 8). SCREEN 11 is handled more like a SCREEN 8+ mode (or SCREEN 12-).

Now we have system that really has grown up with its time.

There was one company that sold Sony MSX2 computers in Finland (Sorry, I don't remember the name) They were not anyway ment for individuals and were sold only to companys.

A lot of people seem to only look at the chips used in MSX generations.
The fact of the matter is, the MSX standard is much more than that!
In MSX2 a lot of things changed under the hood: memory mapper, switchable I/O, real-time clock, light-pen (barely used and I'd rather see it removed from the BIOS, but still )
Same counts for MSX2+, which didn't 'just' upgrade the VDP either.

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I think if MSX2 had been the MSX SYSTEM, we'd be stuck with a non-growing system, just like Commodore 64. You can't call an Amiga 500 its successor because it lacks the 100% downward compatibility with the C64.

I guess that´s because A500 was not made by Commodore itself, but Amiga, as you can guess from Amiga´s name. Amiga was desperate enough, because no-one wanted to buy their computer... and at last, commodore bought their comp.

Actually, Commodore and Atari were fighting it out over the Amiga, but Commodore paid more.
As for being a successor, the Amiga is really the successor of the Atari 8-bit line (same designer, many similar features). Bacwards compatibility is not at all necessary for being a successor to anything. The SuperNES is the true successor to the NES, despite 0% backwards compatibility.

sometimes to do really bigs improvements is necessary to lose the compatibility.

by example, if we need to do big improvements in the msx engine.. it would be DELETE the slotting core and to access to the different SLOT/SUBSLOTS expansors by means of diferent mapped pages, and converting the current 8 bit mapper to 16 bits, where the 4 most significant bits can be used as Chip selectors of the SLOT/SUBSLOT. In that way all the slotting process are reduced to 4 CPU instructions.

just

LD A,(SLOT+SUBSLOT)
OUT (F9),A
LD a,01
out (fD),a

by example!!!..

it can be a big improvement in order to reduce the bottle neck. And a direct access of the VRAM by means specials page numbers!!!
...


Indeed if we do that, maybe the compatibility MSX are not loose, because anyway we can rewrite the bios services routines...

Back in the 80s the ideas behind standardization, open documentation and backwards compatibility made a lot of sense. To me, these factors are still quite important although I don't mind if backwards compatability is reached through emulation/FPGA, in order to reduce the amount of legacy limitations for future systems.

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Actually, Commodore and Atari were fighting it out over the Amiga, but Commodore paid more.

oh.. that´s different story compared to that which I read before I got any touch with internet...

The Amiga story is a long and complicated one, and I'm not about to go into that here.
Much as I enjoyed my beloved MSX, I must admit, that I envied friends with C64, if nothing else for it's sound. I really was a lover of shoot 'em ups, and the C64 could do scrolling SMOOTHLY. Not one single MSX shooter could do that. I thoroughly enjoyed Nemesis 2, but it took some time to get over the way it scrolled (looked like it was jumping 16 pixels at a go or something).

I have to agree, that if MSX2 was the original MSX, I think it would have had a bigger impact. With the likes of Matsushita, Sony and Mitsubishi producing machines, I'm sure they could have made a cheap enough production for it. There is no way in hell, that a company like Matsushita is going to go bankrupt on a single product if it went awry. Matsushita especially, is probably bigger and generating more revenue than just about all the other Japanese companies put together.

However, it didn't happen that way, and MSX was indeed outdated, even back in 1983. My Dad bought me my first computer in 1985, the Canon MSX V-20. It was on sale in Comet for 50 pounds. That was less than any other machine was available at the time, and I think he couldn't resist the bargain. I was pleased, I never had my own computer, and compared to the C64, BBC's and Speccy's all my friends had, it looked like a much more serious piece of kit. The reality, if nothing else due to lazy conversions (at least on tape based games) was that the MSX gave me nothing better than Spectrum 48k Graphics with superior sound (although inferior to C64). Also, even the speccy had a few good shoot 'em ups that scrolled well. I think that was always my biggest disappointment with MSX.

Further adding to my disappointment, was the lack of good arcade conversions. Everyone on their Spectrums and C64s were playing Outrun, and Renegade, and I was stuck with Mastertronic's F1 simulator (awful) and International Karate (which was actually ok). I found it REALLY hard to get games for the machine too, and it usually involved either a special trip somewhere, or budget games at the local sweet shop.

As for whoever said MSX2 was superior to Amiga A500, I love the MSX systems, I can't help it, first computer etc. But there is no way on this earth that the MSX2 was superior to the A500. I can't think of ONE single MSX2 game that even came close to the kind of graphics the Amiga could achieve. And the Amiga's sound without requiring extra cartridges was again superior. I would defend the MSX system every time I hear someone trash it, but even the Turbo R has no games that can compare to A500. And A500 came out around the same time as MSX2.
In 1987 I REALLY wanted an MSX2, but I got the Atari 520STFM summer pack in 88 instead. The only thing I really missed about MSX, was the basic, and the fact it was contained in Rom. I hated Atari basic. The games however, blew anything MSX/MSX2 based away. I was playing Super Sprint, Rampage and all manner of other arcade conversions on my ST, and I really can't imagine any MSX/MSX2 system providing me with those kinds of graphics, and sheer availabilty of games.

However, for reasons I can't figure out, I still have much respect for the old MSX's. I love what it was trying to acheive. If MSX2 had been available more readily, and games weren't so hard to find, maybe I'd never got the ST, instead going Amiga as I did in 1990. I use WinUAE also (Amiga emulator), but I can honestly say, I've never ever even thought of emulating my old Atari ST (of which I have 3 stored alongside my MSX machines and A500 and A1200) I did at least make my MSX the object of envy amongst friends when I got Road Fighter, and Penguin Adventure, and Hyper Sports on the MSX was the best version IMHO. In fact, without Konami, I don't think I'd have enjoyed my MSX anything like as much as I did.

i think that if the MSX starts with MSX2 (with memory mapper), the slotting system will not exists..... because it is a big bottle neck.