Nishi is working on the Next Generation MSX

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

17-08-2018, 10:07

In order not to distribute comments over different pages, here is a link to the already existing post.
Great news anyway!

بواسطة Sander

Founder (1865)

18-08-2018, 00:39

News comments can always be added next to forum posts. What's news without comments? I'm excited about this project, but I'm unsure there will be a market for it, except of course some of us. Hopefully it will not be a mini msx with non-working keys that looks like a shrunken TurboR

بواسطة cax

Prophet (3736)

18-08-2018, 04:51

I bet it will resemble this one.

بواسطة Randam Hajile

Expert (81)

18-08-2018, 12:57

Would be nice! Seeing that C64 kit in the stores now makes me want an MSX with HDMI...

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

20-08-2018, 00:06

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

بواسطة Grauw

Ascended (10137)

20-08-2018, 01:21

You’re forgetting the forum thread which has a few pages of speculation . As for me, gonna need some more deets to get excited . The ARM CPU makes me go eeehh…

بواسطة Pencioner

Scribe (1476)

20-08-2018, 17:17

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

Because it looks so strange in 2018 so that everybody silently waits for any details or so instead of reacting

بواسطة KdL

Paragon (1413)

20-08-2018, 17:26

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

بواسطة gdx

Enlighted (4802)

20-08-2018, 18:02

If I understood correctly, two models are developing. The first (FPGA+ARM+R800) is scheduled for before the end of the year and the second (made with customized chips and with the wireless communication function) for next year in autumn.

بواسطة zett

Hero (608)

20-08-2018, 20:15

hmm a old man refinding his old ideas.... yeah right.

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

20-08-2018, 21:45

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

بواسطة gdx

Enlighted (4802)

21-08-2018, 08:55

To understand, we would have to know exactly what he is trying to do.

بواسطة edoz

Prophet (2394)

21-08-2018, 12:33

Latok wrote:

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

I guess it is more for the students to understand the basics and concept and not to make it commercially.

بواسطة Sander

Founder (1865)

22-08-2018, 01:28

If you look at the logo of the ocm, you can see that that one was also aimed at students. An MSX compatible device that can program IOT devices in a evolution of MSX basic, I'll put some money on that guess. If you read interviews with Nishi or even his presentation in Tilburg IIRC, MSX was envisioned at the smart hub in your home, a bit like homekit today. It will be a system for those people that want to connect and control IOT devices, in a easy way. Or it will be a skrunken msx replica, with some games pre-installed. Like with a D4 enterprise deal Whatever the outcome, it will not be targeted at us MSX users but -hopefully- a new generation of students or another market segment. Let's pray for that If it's nice I probably buy it. Kudos for Nishi that he is at least trying like he did with the ocm. But please hire a good enclosure designer this time and change your marketing manager It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles. MSX has a much bigger software catalog and plenty of great games to create retro console with pre-installed games. Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal. We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll

بواسطة RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

22-08-2018, 06:13

Sander wrote:

It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles.

€90 vs. €320. Built-in library (no less fun to play than many modern games) vs. buy games separately. Nostalgia vs. modern high powered / 3D capable / portable console. Surely there's a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't surprise me if buyers of these consoles are a very different audience.

Quote:

Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal.

Just Konami, really. And perhaps a few others like Compile, Irem, Telenet, ...
But to provide people with their 'retro fix', price is everything. €100+ just wouldn't fly for the casual hook-up-to-TV-and-have-a-go player. And for most of us 'old guys' who used MSXes back in the day: too small a market to lean on that alone. So either it would HAVE to be cheap, or it'll just be a curiosity (sort of like the OCM).

بواسطة Sander

Founder (1865)

22-08-2018, 23:58

Quote:

too small a market

I don't agree. MSX sold 5 million units in Japan, and an estimated 4 million units in the rest of the world (source). That's 9 millions units total. Of course the NES/Famicom sold almost 62 million units (source), and now the NES Classic edition sold more than 4 million units (JP+world) and that number is still growing since the re-release of the unit earlier this year. But let's say 4 million units. That would mean for the "MSX Classic Mini" that there is a potential market for 580.000 units worldwide ;) Even if you write off half of that number for all the MSX computers that were only used in offices it still a big number. And we played games here on office computers during lunch time in the eighties and nineties. Back then even the general manager would come to play some games. I think now would maybe even be a better time to release a new msx device: most of our generation are now at an age that they want to experience some things of their childhood and youth again. Arcade centers are popping up again, 8-bit stuff sells for crazy prices on local secondhand markets and Nintendo Classic Mini's are sold by the masses.

بواسطة FiXato

Scribe (1717)

23-08-2018, 20:22

Sander wrote:

We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll

MSX R2D4?

بواسطة ListoMefisto

Champion (435)

29-08-2018, 23:56

Nishi posted on his personal website (post #144) a new update about the Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX :

# 144 Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX Part 2

2018-08-28
"As I wrote about the next generation MSX, it was quite an echo so I would like to write a bit more. It is the size of Raspberry Pi, power supply is AC 48V. It is equipped with an AC - DC converter on the board and also covers the power supply of USB 3.0. Equipped with Xilinx PGA. Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth and USB 3.0.100 pin multipurpose bus connector. Stacking 64 boards makes it multiprocessor. OS is Windows 10, Linux, MSX OS (MSX DOS evolution form). Open source code of FPGA. Linux and MSX OS also make the source code open. Provide online groupware. Make it a platform for information exchange and information disclosure. We plan to sponsor D4E company and offer game software cheaply. Adjusting C compiler. MSX BASIC license schedule. The CPU is ARM and R800."

بواسطة gdx

Enlighted (4802)

30-08-2018, 13:34

I wonder why not choose directly a USB 3 type C power supply. It would be more convenient and probably cheaper for all.

بواسطة ren

Paragon (1882)

30-08-2018, 14:54

So there will be an actual R800 on the board?
They'll bring those back to production, or is there some old stock still?

[quote]Stacking 64 boards[/quote] que?

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

02-09-2019, 06:21

I really like the idea of a modular computer. Nishi's idea to use the computer similar to a RaspberryPi's on the education market fits well to the previous concept of our system.
User-friendly extensions would not be a problem, a system that can be adapted to its areas of responsibility. From the smart box on the desk to the powerful server, everything can be changed in a few simple steps. Whether the computer has one or two module slots is up to you.

There are possibilities for a battery pack, for RAM upgrades and SSD or HDD kits. Every element is easy to attach, no need of cables.
These cases build for an RasbPi, but could be easily adapted to any board, they are build out of LEGO.
Please take a look at MSX.PICS

بواسطة ren

Paragon (1882)

30-08-2018, 15:13

When the time comes we can order one @hamlet?

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

30-08-2018, 16:33

At least the building instructions, but I'm getting mad with LDD.

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

01-09-2019, 22:17

Anyone knows whats going on with Nishi? According to Japanese media he might be involved in financial fraud at his university? On his personal website www.nishi.org all his blog entries from July 2019 have been erased. Strange.

بواسطة gdx

Enlighted (4802)

07-09-2019, 10:36

It seems that Nishi was fired because 2.1 billion yen are disappeared from his university.
http://www.tv-osaka.co.jp/yasashii/news/?p=7591
We can say goodbye to the future MSX project.

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

07-09-2019, 23:04

Did he hired once more a Godzilla to run through the streets of Tokio?
Besides we heard that members of our community worked with Nishi on this project. Maybe some of them may enlighten us now about this deal?

بواسطة sd_snatcher

Prophet (3480)

08-09-2019, 14:33

This article is easier to be translated and gives more details on the problem.

بواسطة sd_snatcher

Prophet (3480)

08-09-2019, 14:47

Interesting enough, I ended up bumping on this series of YouTube videos where he's interviewed about his past relationship with Microsoft. Too sad that there are no English subtitles, but at least those here who understand Japanese can enjoy it.

بواسطة DRomero

Expert (126)

08-09-2019, 15:55

So the past former director speculated with 100 million ¥ in cryptocurrency and now the money is lost?

What a surprise, I'm betting she not bought Bitcoin but instead other shitcoins XD

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

08-09-2019, 20:32

Well, it looks like Nishi only started at this university in june, to solve problems which occured earlier. He was dismissed from this job only months later because there was a disagreement on how to solve the issues...

بواسطة SwissPanasonic

Resident (36)

25-12-2019, 17:50

Not news ?
I prefer this, a true MSX (like C64 or Super Famicom mini) with few games included than by example MSXVR but....
Difficult to release it

بواسطة edoz

Prophet (2394)

26-12-2019, 23:44

I ordered the new C64 and the spectrum Next as well.. a real MSX from the original designers would be so cool!

بواسطة Yobi

Master (149)

06-02-2020, 12:25

It's going to be 64 bits
http://nishi.org/

Date: 2020/02/04 # 346

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

06-02-2020, 13:41

Thanks Yobi!
The next step:

Quote:

We are making the next generation MSX at the University of Tokyo. The CPU was Z80, R800, 64bit ARM. Initially, it was a 32-bit ARM, but we changed it because people in charge of the software requested that a 64-bit ARM be better. The OS that runs on 64-bit ARM is Linux. C, Python and LISP can be used. Details are around summer.

بواسطة spacemoai1973

Master (165)

06-02-2020, 17:44

I wonder what remains "MSX" about this. It's beginning to sound like a generic ARM SoC like a Raspberry Pi with MSX emulator. Nothing about compatibility with MSX cartridges or hardware. Backwards compatibility is the cornerstone of MSX!

I have more faith in TNI's 32bit MSX project, really...

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

06-02-2020, 18:48

Great news! 'People in charge of the software....' Sounds like a team! And from a university! Pretty exciting

بواسطة Pac

Scribe (6455)

06-02-2020, 19:03

Yes, I thought due to problems at university this project was abandoned definitely. Anyway after reading the lastest post I'm also wondering what kind of MSX has Nishi in mind...

بواسطة sd_snatcher

Prophet (3480)

06-02-2020, 21:48

Sounds more and more like a clone of the MSXVR...

بواسطة DRomero

Expert (126)

07-02-2020, 09:51

Clone of MSXVR indeed.

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

07-02-2020, 10:03

Nishi's original concept of an FPGA based computer had something else in mind. Here there is certainly still development of an exciting story.
I am glad he is back in the boat and will be part of the game again.

بواسطة spacemoai1973

Master (165)

07-02-2020, 16:23

Nishi's original "one chip MSX" concept 19 years ago was an ARM core running Intent + FPGA with live reprogramming. Especially the latter was quite exciting as a concept! All MSX hardware could be activated in the FPGA when necessary, but also other application-specific hardware could be conjured up. Endless possibilities.

It was that concept which led to the release of the 1chipMSX, but that did not have an ARM core or live reprogramming.

For this "Next Generation MSX" there is no mention of FPGA, but there is mention of Z80/R800. It is confusing because Z80/R800 is useless without V99x8 and all the other hardware that make an MSX.

So there are many questions:
Is the Z80/R800 implemented in FPGA afterall, together with other MSX hardware?
Or is there an ASIC with MSX functionality?
Is the Z80/R800 and everything else just a software emulation?
If the ARM is running Linux, an OS with which just about every programming language on earth can be used, what is the significance of mentioning C, Python and LISP explicitely?
Does this mean there is again an Intent-like abstraction layer that only has bindings with C, Python and LISP?

بواسطة ducasp

Champion (462)

07-02-2020, 21:04

My guess is that it's more similar to MSX VR than anything else, it is meant to be cheap and FPGAs aren't cheap, and also most ARM SOCs have way more processing power than needed for a faithful emulation.

بواسطة FiXato

Scribe (1717)

16-08-2020, 21:57

A quick scan of Nishi's website doesn't seem to show any more recent news regarding this project?

بواسطة Pac

Scribe (6455)

27-10-2020, 13:29

Still on going... entry #435. Why 5 CPU? And an 8 bit R800...?

http://nishi.org/

بواسطة Latok

msx guru (3840)

27-10-2020, 15:43

I think he was smoking while he wrote that

بواسطة gdx

Enlighted (4802)

27-10-2020, 16:20

He says it will be some kind of virtual machine. So as duscsp I think it's something similar to MSX VR. Four VM (ARM 32bit, x86 32bit, x86 16bit and R800) powered by a ARM 64bit. Architecture of the R800 is more 8bit than 16bit.

بواسطة elmar_c_fuchs

Supporter (13)

26-11-2020, 01:13

#444 次世代MSXの可能性を考える

2020-11-24
次世代MSXのスペックを考えている。スペックを考えるのと同時に誰がユーザーになるのかも考えている。

世の中には７つのジャイアントがいる。パソコン界ではWindowsとMac。スーパーゲーム界ではXBoxとPlayStationとNintendo。スマホではAndroidとiPhone。後発のなにかが出てこの７つと戦って勝つということができるのであろうか。答えはできないというところか。王者がひとつしかいない分野はコンピューターマニアの分野だ。そこに今大成功しているのはRasberryPiである。この分野でRasberryPiと共存しながら存在を主張し、固めていくしかMSXの未来はないような気がする。ユーザーに指示されていない30年前の8bitパソコンを2020年の現在に復活させ売っていくなんて狂気の沙汰だ。

ということを考えながら現代の７大コンピューターの隙間を毎日考えている。

Google translate:

# 444 Thinking about the possibilities of next-generation MSX

2020-11-24
I am thinking about the specifications of the next-generation MSX. At the same time as thinking about the specifications, we are also thinking about who will be the user.

There are seven giants in the world. Windows and Mac in the personal computer world. In the super game world, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo. Android and iPhone on smartphones. Is it possible that something late will come out and fight against these seven to win? I can't answer. The field with only one champion is the field of computer enthusiasts. The Raspberry Pi is now very successful there. I feel that the future of MSX is the only way to insist on its existence while coexisting with the Raspberry Pi in this field and solidify it. It is crazy to revive and sell an 8-bit personal computer 30 years ago that was not instructed by the user as of 2020.

While thinking about that, I am thinking about the gaps between the seven modern computers every day.

بواسطة Pac

Scribe (6455)

25-12-2020, 11:03

Post #458.

بواسطة Pac

Scribe (6455)

04-09-2021, 00:39

Nishi is answering questions from Japanese users about the next MSX computer.

بواسطة ren

Paragon (1882)

04-09-2021, 10:00

Have you read/translated those? If yes, could you summarize in English?

بواسطة Pac

Scribe (6455)

04-09-2021, 15:36

Just a few but Nishi is not revealing so much with those short answers...

بواسطة elmar_c_fuchs

Supporter (13)

09-10-2021, 20:15

540 次世代MSX2021-09-29
Twitterで次世代MSXのことを2週間ぐらいツイートした。親切な人がいて自分のツイートをまとめ上げて一覧表にしてくれた人がいる。ありがたいことだ。年内の発表来年の春の出荷に向けて取り組んで行きたい。

540 Next Generation MSX2021-09-29
I tweeted about the next generation MSX on Twitter for about two weeks. There is a kind person who puts together my tweets and puts them in a list. Thank you. Announcement within the year I would like to work toward shipping next spring.

بواسطة hamlet

Scribe (3706)

10-10-2021, 10:24

A sale as early as next spring?
That seems like a very ambitious goal, or -what would worry me more- maybe not.

بواسطة ivke2006

Expert (71)

11-10-2021, 18:34

Only way he could revive MSX is to position it around raspberry PI en Arduino price range en functionality plus something extra.

For example using esp32 or SAM3XXX chips. They are dirt cheap and fast.
Position it as Arduino but with stand-alone capabilities.
Now I need my Mac to program a Arduino compatible board but both chips can drive S-VGA resolution with only a few additional resistors.
Would be supercool to have a device that combines Arduino like functionality with a platform like MSX.

بواسطة sdsnatcher73

Prophet (2312)

13-10-2021, 06:05

Well that is your opinion and I respect that but I disagree it is the only way. It could be a way but for me it would not be what Homecomputers like MSX were meant to be. In many ways a Chromebook is the Homecomputer of the modern age. Easy for young children to learn and plug it in and start playing, writing, etc. For me a new MSX would be more like that but without the tracking and more focus on coding for young to old.

بواسطة ivke2006

Expert (71)

15-10-2021, 16:32

It’s of course only my opinion

I like your idea also but Nishi will never be able to get a consortium of companies together which can invest millions of dollars. This would be necessary to be able to compete with Chromebooks.

Raspberry Pi like MSX would be considerably cheaper (maybe 15 dollars/ PCB) to put on the market and can tap into several markets (Arduino/raspberry market, home automation, educational, IOT, etc..)

Also I like Arduino because in some ways it reminds me of the creativity of MSX.

بواسطة enribar

Paragon (1143)

29-10-2021, 23:41

First photo:
https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1453781371806093326

بواسطة ivke2006

Expert (71)

30-10-2021, 09:29

Nice!

Nishi is working on the Next Generation MSX

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