Mutant Monty sound output level bug?

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Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

15-04-2015, 20:16

Well, speaking of good ol' classics! Wink
A while ago I started up Mutant Monty (MSX-1-MANIA disk #47), but it seems the sound volume output is *very* low. I don't recall to have that issue with it back in the day on my real MSX(2). Could I have found a bug here?

Tested on openMSX, blueMSX & Meisei.

I also tried a version (.lzh archive) found on msxarchive, but the music in that version doesn't even play/sound right (could be a bad dump of course...)

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Por Manuel

Ascended (18240)

Imagen del Manuel

15-04-2015, 21:19

Try it on a real MSX and you know!

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

15-04-2015, 21:28

Manuel wrote:

Try it on a real MSX and you know!

If I got one here, hooked up and all, I would have of course.. Shocked!

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

17-04-2015, 20:14

@manuel: (as coauthor of openMSX) aren't you curious then to investigate / see for yourself? Wink

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

30-07-2015, 22:09

So.. No takers? To be clear: I don't have an actual MSX available to test it / check for myself..

@manuel: I didn't find your (seemingly) 'smart' comment really that helpful, let alone constructive, and expect(ed) a bit more from an openMSX co-author.. (lack in interest to investigate, while someone reports a possible bug (after doing some investigation of his own already) ?)

(Of course, other peeps are free to investigate as well.. Wink)

Or perhaps I should have created an openMSX issue to have it more seriously looked at?

Por Manuel

Ascended (18240)

Imagen del Manuel

30-07-2015, 23:37

I just looked at it, but the game is just programming the PSG at a low level. The output volume is just quite low.

It may have sounded not very constructive, but it's definitely the most important thing to test first. There have been dozens of 'weird' things reported, which were just happening the same way on a real MSX. And this is probably very similar. Debugging the game is quite some work, so before that we need to be sure whether it's actually an emulator bug or not.

Also, you are mentioning me, but I don't even know how to properly investigate this further. And, again, before making that worth while anyway, someone should test this on real hardware.

By the way, the fact that it happened on all emulators you tried, also points to a game issue. I.e. it makes it more likely that it happens on a real MSX too.

Anyway, I'll try that disk version with corrupted sound on a real MSX. It also shows the low volume stuff in openMSX.

UPDATE: OK, I ran it on my turboR via Nowind. Low volume, as expected. For some reason, the sound was pretty OK now though! (However, I tried with a Nowind, which I can't check exactly like that in openMSX.)

OK, another discovery on real MSX and emulated MSX: press F2 to influence the volume of the music!

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

31-07-2015, 23:12

Thanks for your reaction,

Quote:

I just looked at it, but the game is just programming the PSG at a low level. The output volume is just quite low.

It may have sounded not very constructive, but it's definitely the most important thing to test first. There have been dozens of 'weird' things reported, which were just happening the same way on a real MSX. And this is probably very similar. Debugging the game is quite some work, so before that we need to be sure whether it's actually an emulator bug or not.

Yes sure, of course, seems obvious to me (that's also why I took your first reaction to be a bit on the 'lame' side.. Wink)

Quote:

Also, you are mentioning me, but I don't even know how to properly investigate this further. And, again, before making that worth while anyway, someone should test this on real hardware.

At least you reacted of course.. Wink As it looks to me, you're one of the more enthusiastic/active MSX users, so I was quite sure you should be able to do a check (on real HW) yourself.. (but of course, you're not obliged to.. Wink)

Quote:

By the way, the fact that it happened on all emulators you tried, also points to a game issue. I.e. it makes it more likely that it happens on a real MSX too.

Well, I reckon most emu's use in some extend shared/borrowed code, like openMSX's PSG emulation is based on MAME sources if I'm correct.. (do you track updates teams make on sources you use/'borrow'?) Of course there's a possibility all mentioned emulators suffer from some kind of the same 'defect'.

Quote:

Anyway, I'll try that disk version with corrupted sound on a real MSX. It also shows the low volume stuff in openMSX.

UPDATE: OK, I ran it on my turboR via Nowind. Low volume, as expected. For some reason, the sound was pretty OK now though! (However, I tried with a Nowind, which I can't check exactly like that in openMSX.)

I reckon running the game through Nowind shouldn't make a difference? Thanks for trying, interesting that it's pretty OK on real HW, I couldn't recall the sound level being THAT low (indeed), on the emu/PC I really have to crank op the volume to absurd levels! (So perhaps there could be question of a bug in a way, in that low programmed PSG volume results in a too low volume output on the emu/PC - that circuitry on real HW results in louder output.. ??)

Quote:

OK, another discovery on real MSX and emulated MSX: press F2 to influence the volume of the music!

Cool, I'll try that!
Again, thanks for reacting and testing, much appreciated. For me it's also just a matter of trying to help out & reporting a possible issue, and (to be clear) it certainly wasn't my intention to be a dick about the matter or something (and perhaps I should have stated I wasn't able to test/verify myself and ask the community in my OP).. Peace, and have a good night! Wink

Por Manuel

Ascended (18240)

Imagen del Manuel

31-07-2015, 23:28

No problem, just keep mentioning stuff you find Smile

Quote:

Well, I reckon most emu's use in some extend shared/borrowed code, like openMSX's PSG emulation is based on MAME sources if I'm correct.. (do you track updates teams make on sources you use/'borrow'?) Of course there's a possibility all mentioned emulators suffer from some kind of the same 'defect'.

It is a very long time ago that the PSG code was taken from MAME (over a decade ago). We have done quite some improvements ourselves in the mean time. I think the PSG emulation (regarding sound) is practically 100% perfect at the moment.

When there are emulation issues/bugs we take a look at the original sources if applicable, but that doesn't happen often. That is, it's not often that they offer fixes we didn't have yet.

And yes, it is possible all emulators suffer from the same defect, but it's not likely. I don't think they are all from the same origin.

Quote:

I reckon running the game through Nowind shouldn't make a difference?

It could make a difference for the sound corruption in the disk versions. It may be a problem of corruption of the sound/music data in RAM due to presence of disk work area and stuff like that.

Quote:

Thanks for trying, interesting that it's pretty OK on real HW, I couldn't recall the sound level being THAT low (indeed), on the emu/PC I really have to crank op the volume to absurd levels! (So perhaps there could be question of a bug in a way, in that low programmed PSG volume results in a too low volume output on the emu/PC - that circuitry on real HW results in louder output.. ??)

The sound level is low on real MSX and similarly low on the emulated MSX. There's no bug, it's just what the game does.
If you want higher volume, use F2. Then the game changes the output level of the music. Note that F1 just mutes the music completely, until you die Smile

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

01-08-2015, 20:24

Quote:

The sound level is low on real MSX and similarly low on the emulated MSX. There's no bug, it's just what the game does.
If you want higher volume, use F2. Then the game changes the output level of the music. Note that F1 just mutes the music completely, until you die Smile

Ah, ok, I got confused by you saying the sound was pretty OK on your turboR.. But perhaps you meant the sound of the version as found on msxarchive (mutant.lzh)? (Then still it's interesting perhaps why the sound of this version is f*ed up on the emu('s)..)

How did you find out about the F2 key, by debugging?
Still odd to me it starts with very low volume (the MSXMania version at least), with F2 I can go to full volume alright.. But could perhaps also be due to version/dump differences?
Or perhaps I *did* know about F2 back in the day.. (It's possible I don't recall /everything/.. Wink)

Woei, Mutant Monty! Running Naked in a Field of Flowers (zelf ook gespeeld back in the day btw? Wink) (beetje geduld wel required... Wink)

Por Manuel

Ascended (18240)

Imagen del Manuel

01-08-2015, 21:19

I meant that the sound was not corrupted on the turboR and that the difference could be the use of the Nowind interface. So, it would be good if someone could try with a disk image on a real turboR with real floppies. (My FDD is broken.)

I found out about the F2 key by slamming my keyboard.

The CAS tape dump has exactly the same behaviour: start at low volume, control with F2. It's just original in the game and probably you don't remember.

I hadn't played the game ever before.

By the way, I tried to finish the first level by getting all the gold and going to the exit, but nothing happened!

Por ren

Paragon (1883)

Imagen del ren

01-08-2015, 22:28

Quote:

I found out about the F2 key by slamming my keyboard.

Ah, rage already, or do you always do that when trying out an unfamiliar game? Wink

Quote:

By the way, I tried to finish the first level by getting all the gold and going to the exit, but nothing happened!

Weird.. That's on your real turboR right?
Btw: I'm still not sure which version/dump of the game you're using?

(EDIT: are you *sure* you actually got ALL the gold in the level? Tongue Hannibal Wink)

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