MSXDev'07 specs - discussion

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Por mars2000you

Enlighted (5704)

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29-09-2006, 14:08

That's another part of the discussion, implying to organize (or not) an apart contest for megaroms.

But as jltusan has suggested, an equilibrium must be found in the points system between the quality and the quantity, so maybe an apart contest for megaroms is not requested. That's indeed the role of the jury to appreciate this equilibrium.

In this context, the only remaining BIG question should be the opportunity to create a specific MSX2 contest and to define the rules of this contest. Probably not so easy, certainly more difficult than a contest for games that can be runned on MSX1 and higher.

Por Huey

Prophet (2657)

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29-09-2006, 14:28

it's odd ! Wink

*if* rules state that 1M ROM is allowed .. then what's the point of bonuspoints in case a product requires less ROM ?

We suggested:

MSXdev'07:
48kb ROM - 16kb RAM

more ROM = penalty points (perhaps this would make the comparision small v.s. big fair-er)
more RAM = penalty points (easier for developers but less MSX1 compatible.)

And if we want to give it a positive touch we don't give penalties for exeeding these limits. But bonus points for all that did not exeed. It will give the same results.

Por AuroraMSX

Paragon (1901)

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29-09-2006, 23:38

How about just putting a limit on the total of ROM + RAM?
So a developer can choose for example between 32K ROM + 32K RAM or 48K ROM + 16K RAM, if the limit is set to 64K ...

Por mars2000you

Enlighted (5704)

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30-09-2006, 01:15

Ehmmm ... when I have said that 64 Kb RAM could be 'the reference', I had 2 ideas in my mind :

- for MSX1 games, it should be the maximum RAM and bonus points could be given for games that can be runned on MSX1 with 32 kb RAM or 16 Kb RAM

- for eventual MSX2/2+ games, it should be the minimum RAM (as it's the case of many Japanese machines)

But that's only a step in my thinking ... note also that minimum RAM for Turbo-R is 256 kb ....

So an eventual MSX2 (and higher) contest could be based on 64 kb RAM minimum and 256 Kb RAM maximum with bonus points if the game can be runned on machines with 128 or 64 kb RAM.

Por dvik

Prophet (2200)

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30-09-2006, 01:37


MSXdev'07:
48kb ROM - 16kb RAM

more ROM = penalty points (perhaps this would make the comparision small v.s. big fair-er)
more RAM = penalty points (easier for developers but less MSX1 compatible.)

Sounds like a very good. I don't think more than 16kB ram makes it less MSX1 compatible though but I assume you mean runs on fewer MSX1 machines.
Don't make the penalties too big though. It should be possible to make a game that worth the extra ROM/RAM and still have a fair chance of winning.

Por Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

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30-09-2006, 01:48

.......and bonus points could be given for games that can be runned on MSX1 with 32 kb RAM or 16 Kb RAMI like the idea of bonus points vs penalty points indeed. Penalty points are kind of harsh. "Oooh, your smooth scrolling never-seen-before-mega-RPG uses 32kB RAM, now you don't win anymore!" just doesn't really cut it. It's much nicer to award bonus points for 'very efficient memory usage'. To make YabYum on a 16kB machine doesn't take much effort. To make UU on a 16kB machine does. Just reward games which manage to accomplish a lot using little hardware, that way everyone's happy. Same could apply for ROM size, tho perhaps with an upper limit so people don't get too ambitious in their projects. We don't want people trying to make sample-playing-rotating-sprites-animating-background Gradius IV clones either! Tongue

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (9826)

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30-09-2006, 01:59

Just RAR a .ROM, the less gets compressed away, the better the game, if a game uses 32kb then you can assume it's used for a reason ^_^

Por tokumaru

Expert (83)

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02-10-2006, 19:44

I think it is a bit funny how some feel that 16kb of RAM is too little... I'm used to code for the NES/Famicom, and it has only 2kb of RAM. Sure, later games could have 8kb more on the cart, but many many good games only use the standard 2kb. These 2kb have proved to be enough for most of my designs, and that included some pretty big complex games (unfortunately never finished any!). So, the 16kb on the MSX are a world to me. I can't even imagine how to use all of it.

The only clear advantage of using more RAM is compression. If the level maps in a game are compressed in ROM, you'll surelly be able to squeeze a lot more of them in the same cart. But if ROM size isn't an issue, RAM use can be minimal.

Por tokumaru

Expert (83)

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02-10-2006, 20:40

Well, there are ways to have compressed levels without using much RAM also, but I guess more efficient compression can be achieved otherwise, where you can treat bigger blocks of data as units to be compressed.

Anyway, in the end, I'd rather have limited RAM than ROM.

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (9826)

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02-10-2006, 21:48

Theres not a person who could say that '16kb ought to be enough for everyone' .. the biggest computer-industrial tried something similar in the 80's.. he failed deeply. Tongue

If 32kb would be allowed, some ppl *are* going to use it. In the most likely case, games get bigger. Ppl use whatever there is to use... beit 16kb or 32kb. 32kb is ideal for compressed games. Typically compressed games also tend to be the somewhat larger games. Now, if dev6 would be aimed at small MSX1 games, like dev3/4 en perhaps dev5, then 16kb would prolly be enough..

But! Guess what..! dev6 has increased ROM specs up to the MegaROM.. ideal for bigger games! So on one point they increased the ROM specs for bigger games, but at the same time limit the RAM usage. It's a little bit of a contradiction.

And yes: about Konami games running with 8kb.. those games couldn't been bigger if better compression would be used. But.. we seem to run in circles .. I think the dev organisers have seen enough motivations to form an opinion.

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