MSX1 vs C64

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Por TomH

Champion (327)

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30-01-2018, 15:29

That sounds correct — it's exactly the same thing as, say, the floor in Street Fighter II, but without any vertical motion.

I'm not that impressed by demo effects though. If we're counting demo effects as fair representations then here's what amounts to that for the AY — it's the Atari ST introduction screen for Xenon 2, using no doubt a substantial proportion of the available memory for sampled sound. At about the minute mark the user presses 'space' to load the main game, and the space and processing time for audio is reduced to realistic in-game limits, so it transitions awkwardly to standard three-channel stuff.

That's the difference between a demo effect and a real deployment. The C64 demo scene's impressive output doesn't necessarily say to me that it's an impressive machine, just that it's a machine with an impressive demo scene.

Por ARTRAG

Enlighted (6537)

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30-01-2018, 16:32

Atari ST can count on a number of programmable real time clocks that can trigger interrupts.
Sampled audio and other music tricks are much easier in that configuration than with the sole AY8910 on the msx system.

Por ren

Paragon (1868)

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30-01-2018, 16:51

C64 did have cool game loaders, and music could play whilst loading (and saving?) data. I always was jealous of that ;-) (Oh, we've got this (courtesy of @manuelbi) ;))

Something else that's notable: it seemed common on C64 to only have music on e.g. the title screen, and in-game sfx only. Or music in-game as well, but then no sfx. Rather lame of course. (But conventional?)
An exception (but perhaps there are many, I'm not sure) is Monty on the Run - which has in-game music, and sfx plays when picking up a coin (but it takes 2 (I believe) channels of the BGM).

Simultaneous BGM & SFX easier to pull of properly on the AY-3-8910? Or also a 'cultural' / difference in convention here?

Btw: SID ;)

Por TomH

Champion (327)

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30-01-2018, 17:12

ARTRAG wrote:

Atari ST can count on a number of programmable real time clocks that can trigger interrupts.
Sampled audio and other music tricks are much easier in that configuration than with the sole AY8910 on the msx system.

Right, I was contrasting what you can do if you dedicate all your resources to producing an effect, such as demos do, to what a real program could do. On an MSX the demo effect could just pump the AY in a perpetual busy loop, achieving everything an ST could audibly subject to memory limits.

This is why I argued you shouldn't read too much into demos. They're too synthetic.

ren wrote:

C64 did have cool game loaders, and music could play whilst loading (and saving?) data. I always was jealous of that ;-) (Oh, we've got this (courtesy of @manuelbi) ;))

But on the other hand, everything loads so slowly. Even with 'turbo' loaders it seems only to manage to get back towards the speed of every other home computer. I'll wager the MSX's built-in 2400 baud is faster than almost any Commodore title out there.

ren wrote:

Simultaneous BGM & SFX easier to pull of properly on the AY-3-8910? Or also a 'cultural' / difference in convention here?

If you want to use ring modulation in your SID music then you lose a channel, so you're down to two. That makes it difficult to music and sound effects. But I think it's mostly cultural, a result of the race for blockbuster title music: you throw everything you've got at the title music, then if there's no graceful climbdown for in-game then so be it. As you say, it's far from universal.

Por ren

Paragon (1868)

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30-01-2018, 17:22

Thanks TomH.
Btw, in BIG favor of the AY-3-8910: I like this* one a lot. Perhaps the best (scene) PSG thing I've heard?

* Xyz - Well Beefington

Por ToriHino

Paladin (724)

Imagen del ToriHino

30-01-2018, 17:34

TomH wrote:

This is why I argued you shouldn't read too much into demos. They're too synthetic.

Hmm don't know if i agree on this. What's synthetic about demos? They just are a showcase on what is possible given the combined hardware (video, sound, cpu), and exist next to for example games and applications.

Por TomH

Champion (327)

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30-01-2018, 17:50

ToriHino wrote:
TomH wrote:

This is why I argued you shouldn't read too much into demos. They're too synthetic.

Hmm don't know if i agree on this. What's synthetic about demos? They just are a showcase on what is possible given the combined hardware (video, sound, cpu), and exist next to for example games and applications.

My argument is that they're primarily sleight-of-hand, and geared towards doing things that are unrealistic in any other context. Most of them boil down to being a sufficiently-compact way to replay their selected precomputed effect.

I guess my argument is slightly philosophical: I'm taking it as implicit that one of the defining characteristics of using a home computer is that it is an interactive experience, and the quality of a computer is the quality of that experience.

In my view, because demos are fixed audio-visual artworks, they're merely a sideshow. If you were in the 1980s and wanted to buy the thing that was best at replaying a fixed sequence of images and sounds then you wouldn't buy a Commodore 64 or an MSX, you'd buy a VCR.

Games and applications are the real items of interest for me. I'd much rather play a game I don't even really like than watch a demo.

Por PingPong

Prophet (3758)

Imagen del PingPong

30-01-2018, 20:27

syn wrote:

The SID is on par with scc or opll imho, fewer channels, but compensated by its other features. I'd say depending on situation it can be better than scc or opll. And it runs circles around the AY, no doubt about it.

the sid better than opl?
are you deaf or are you kidding?

Por Grauw

Ascended (10056)

Imagen del Grauw

30-01-2018, 20:37

In the end IMO it all depends on the composition. On both SID and AY3 and OPLL I’ve heard astounding beauty and utter garbage Smile. On SCC, of course all music is beautiful, but maybe that’s because Konami made most of it Wink.

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (9892)

Imagen del wolf_

30-01-2018, 21:01

Then again, MJTT features FM-sounds on SCC... so: dilemma! Running Naked in a Field of Flowers

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