MSX 3: the reason.

Página 1/4
| 2 | 3 | 4

Por Salamander2

Expert (124)

Imagen del Salamander2

06-09-2008, 00:28

following the ideia questioned in the thread if the msx really need a new graphic card,
and discussions about it, i've started this thread.

in recent days, Ricardo Oazem from Brazil, started his own project the "msx vsu",
or VDU mentioned here. witch basically is an upgrade to the existing gfx9000,
adding more vdps to the current one and a moonsound in one apparatus.
the ideia behind it sure is great, and main focus in the so need advance in
the msx computer line that the expected gfx9000 does so little because of lacking resources
in software for it.

observing the progress of the project and its purpose, i've noticed that i could failure
to the same point of that gfx9000 has failed. I invite you to follow on the issue and share your opinion there: http://www.msx.org/forumtopic8923.html

my point of view, is that the gfx9000 hasn't received much software because the number of
people interested and buyed the thing is very low, compared to the number of msx machines around in the world that could potentially use it. back in the time that gfx was started to be sold was me. but, living in brazil the priced is too high to risk in such hardware without support from konami, panasonic, t&e soft, etc. so, i've decided then wait for the games and other software and adding money to go buy. but this has not happened.

backing in the day that the msx turbo r was announced, kay nishi has a vdp still in development. panasonic ordered to hurry with the machine to be ready at the deadline day.
kay nishi and their team concluded that it was no possible to finish the vdp in time, so they just put the old msx2+ vdp in the machine and the rest is story. the msx turbo r was almost a failure but few enthusiasts still keep with the standard and buying the machine.
the msx2 in 1985 has so such improvements ahead it's competitors and even videogame machines of the time, what came to solidify the brand. msx = compatibility, great unique games and technology. knightmare for the msx was sucess, gradius 2 was a critical hit for konami group, that they support the msx up to the superfamicom era, high the groundbreaking title metal gear 2: solid snake. the game runs either on msx2, msx2+ and in turbo r, against competitors like f-zero, super mario world, actraiser, super r-type, and even with revolution that nintendo was creating, metal gear 2 was a winner in japan. the prove is that metal gear solid 4: guns of patriots has a lot of references from the time kojima work with his team in msx games. even today, the msx is respected because of this. the work of brilliant team in so simple hardware.

the msx turbo r was scrapped by panasonic, enter the 3do company claiming that '3do' is just a trademark, and several companies will produce the machines based in the standard of the 3do licensing company. curiously, the same idea behind the msx machines... the thing even come with 2 of the so desired vdps intended to use in the msx turbo r machines. anyone here that could remember, crash'n'burn graphics for the system could not be matched by other vdp systems. even street fighter 2 turbo was published in the machine with arcade like graphics. so... we can think the possibility of msx turbo r running games like these in this vdp chip! capcom ported super street fighter 2 turbo for fm-towns 2 with the same arcade like graphics and music, but towns 2 vdp was not better than v9990...

without making the advance in video, the msx turbo r(16 bit), has the same graphic quality of the msx2+(8 bit) losing market for the current generation of 16 bit machines, visually has no evolution. the companies behind the msx software support slowlly began to leave. (konami leaves the standard after the msx turbo r specs go public. they gain more money on games like castlevania 4 and gradius 3 in the next-gen super famicom shinny graphics and music, so why bother with a machine that hasn't changed? they give up support on famicom up to 1994 because nintendo was paying for they develop and support the hardware in america, to not lose stream to sega and gain time to put the super nintendo in the market).

today, the gfx9000 has support from the msx existing user base(around 300~400 units), but
still missing software support. we also take note that very few msx users in japan and brazil have this hardware, and either, not having produced virtually nothing of software.
if we observe...it's almost the same cenario of the launch of msx turbo r.

for a comparison, the original b&w gameboy was launched, to evolute for a 32 bit machine(gba) following the same principle of the msx. compatibility, simplicity, but easy to program with good results. the gba paved the way to the total dominance of the nintendo ds today. now imagine if the nintendo ds comes with only one screen or the same hardware of the gba? would have achieved the same success? it's very doubtful. it was necessary to change to keep the brand alive. but it remains compatible to the very first 8 bit game boy.

the game boy has so many fans and addicts that if nintendo announce a new interation, sure it will be a sucess. but if fails in the middle of the process, sure the game gear, or the playstaion portable could killed the brand.

the msx standard still has it's loyal fans. it has many people interested in kojima and other award winning works to keep asking what is a msx. adn we know that msx was that good backing in the old times. but it was because of good sales of software that keeps the people buying the computer to play or use the so desired software. the producers not engage in the standard because they love the machine, or because the machine is better than others of the time, the reason is because the software produced by them, sold well. they need above all, the money. MONEY. money to pay the producers, programmers, designers, etc. without the money, the software company could not produce the so need software for the hardware. the hardware maker also lose, because the customer goes to the other machine that has the thing of desire, and not buy nothing from that computer company. a lot of msx user claim to be lovers of the standard, and buy everything that appear on the market, nothing wrong about it. but sometimes, the user has to pay abusive prices to support the brand. sometimes even wishing to contribute and has good will, the price is not affordable. no way.
but i can sey to you how to lower the price of it: market availability.

the msx now is surrounded by hobbists with good will. no doubt. but even they start to produce something, they will creating believing that someone will help the cause and buy it. that's honorable. but at the same time, questionable. we all of us could buy the hardware from this honorable guy? is it easy to program? is it cheap? the impact of the hardware will guarantee that the future expansions will use it? if one of the questions above the answer is no, the hardware will FAIL. that's exactly the case of VDU and the gfx9000 now. the gfx 9000 has almost no support and no market avaliability for all the installed base to buy the hardware and, Oazem, with good will and intentions, started his project as a virtually upgrade of the gfx9000/moonsound combo and avaliability for the brazilian msx market, without even notice the failure to atract users of the gfx9000. a lot of vdps, lot of human work, to what? a few user to buy the hardware at almost the same price target of the xbox360? and with NO installed base? it could be great to see in fair meetings the awesome games of new hardware announced. but if its not possible to the people to buy, only the creator will use the software to it. if only one person produce software for 100 people, you could imagine that the number of software avaliable to the hardware will be VERY low.
now imagine if 1000 buy the hardware and say they will every all software for it. humanely, it is impossible to handle all the things togheter at the same time. so he will pay for someone to help him to produce the sofware fast enough for the users. with the money, he could pay more people to get involved, and later, form teams, to enhance the product and suply the demand. if it makes money, will draw attention of other programmers, and they will jump in the bandwagon to produce for the hardware to enjoy some money too. the money will help encourage them to produce more and more software and to enhance it too.

management, organization, avaliability. the secret of the sucess.

i also have respect with the retro users, but some of them started with msx1, while others started with msx 2 and don't interest themselves to use the older interation. while exists the ones who want to upgrade their machines too. retro market do money only from the one's who really started with the thing and has good memories. they 'love' the system. and use it simply as a way to go back into a time travel. but i have to remember that their beloved machine was creatd with a lot of money efforts from epic partners back in the time. without the money interest, the msx standart will ever existed. the msx so respected that cause confusion in the american and england. they think that msx will eventually kill the local computer market and revolutionize the market entirely. the msx is actually the best 8 bit computer in the world. but in my mind, it could be the best of 16 bit era, or pehaps...even todays era! but a single project delay changed the history...

my proposal for the system is to stop all hardware activities now. and start to chat about organization, msx hardware , software, avaliability, disposal of human resources, etc. to get the msx back in track again. it has to be an global effort to make a direction of what hardware will needed to be produced, market avaliability, costs to consider, etc. to produce an one unique msx hardware acceptable and affordable to all the people interested to buy. to form groups to produce specific software to it to gain attention of other computer/game market to invest in the ideia and join us(or return eventually) but with serious organization, divided into groups of programmers, testers, sound designers, hardware designers, etc. to make a new breath to the msx idea and concept. look into the dreamcast suporters for an example: they call help for other groups in diferent areas of the globe. artists with potential from korea, japan, programmers from england, germany and russia, etc. they produce cutey games with a lot of color and almost professional design to a great mass of people that still see dreamcast games look good and simplistic but yet fun to play! i've posted earlier a link to the new wiiware game gradius rebirth. it has a lot, i mean, its almost an msx game! but with awesome graphics from our msx games and sound remixed too from this games also! thats the gradius that our new machine needed to play. that game belong to us. just see the demo and you will recognize, pentarou adventure, shalom, doctor venom, nemesis 2 and 3 musics, nemesis2 sound effects, but the game is veeeeery simple but is A LOT FUN AND HAS UNIQUE SHINNY APPEAL. 5 people produced that game. there is no trace of poligons there. hey msx users. if the new vsu or gfx9000+moonsound could run a carbon copy of that game and the price of the hardware costs less than a wii, SURELLY IT WILL SELL!!!!! believe in me.
imagine a megaman game with megaman 9 graphics for the msx? megaman 9 is anxioully awaited for the playstation 3, the xbox 360 and wii AND HAS EIGHT BIT GRAPHICS & SOUND.
capcom surelly will sell a lot. for sure!

a lot of small groups in japan gain money producing theirs games in home without high-specs, but criativity! the so called doujin groups. they help a lot in the homebrew scene of the videogames and retro computers drawing, concepting fun games. i still don't know why the japanese flag is missing in the front page of mrc...where is the support from the creative people of japan?? the msx started in japan, the groups produce interesting stuff there, but remains only there. will they ever know the existance of gfx9000 and moonsound? because i bey you if they produce a solitaire game for gfx9000 with cutey graphics, IT WILL SELL. a lot of people like this anime characters and they has a strong image appeal. if the gfx9000 is so good...where are the suport from the japanese graphic and sound designers????

i'm not saying that the work people from other places will not sell, but it will be a good ideia to get support from them, right?

i would like that post could be read by the most number of msx users possible around in the world. ask nishi if all the things that i mentioned here make some sense. the msx needs some groundbreaking effort on consolidate the hardware for the market that the people could buy cheap and good software. Union.

my concept idea for a new msx was related before in the other forum. a simple yet powerfull yet little cased yet retro-compatible machine, easy to program, anything at the gba horsepower level. 32bit fullspec machine like the homebrew game park, wireless pheripheral to total integration of anything that could be used in the future expansions.

Oazem, Manuel, Carchano, etc. works are proud and incredible. but i really like that from now on they have sucess in order to bring back the good of the msx idea back again like the good old times and not fail because of little things and that everyone could be happy, programming and using good software in their machines.

thank you for reading this immense post.

if someone feels that is not right or feels offended, my appologies. thats not my intention.
its my humble opinion.

"I'll leave recorded only the truth.
Sometimes the truth can be painful, sad.
But still, the truth is what lets start a new life."

Gradius emperor Lars XVIII, James Burton.
(Nemesis 2/MSX)

Login sesión o register para postear comentarios

Por spl

Paragon (1470)

Imagen del spl

06-09-2008, 08:01

Outstanding post. Thanks very much.

Por PingPong

Prophet (4093)

Imagen del PingPong

06-09-2008, 10:21

IMHO the idea of a new standard it's only a dream.
The problem is that the whole machine is too much outdated...
you told about the VDP stuffs as outdated, but really who want to hear music from the PSG? (or SCC/MoonSound). All these things are outdated.
Can you imagine to program and entire BIG game in assembly language on an old R800 (not to mention the z80, that's more sloooow), with slots constraint in mind?.

To make a good machine you need not only a great video HW, but also
- A great sound hw (MP3 decoding?, multichannel WAVs?)
- A fast and compatible CPU, AFAIK there is no z80 with two levels cache running at 800Mhz at least.

Even creating those things from scratch, the results is no longer and msx...

Por DamageX

Master (217)

Imagen del DamageX

06-09-2008, 10:29

I think the problem with MSX expansions is that they compete with each other. This is why I haven't considered buying a GFX9000. Let's look at all the expansions that are commonly used on MSX:

Memory mapper
MegaRAM/SCC/flash
IDE/SCSI controller
MSX-MUSIC
MSX-AUDIO
Moonsound
GFX9000

We only have two cartridge slots! The slots on my MSX2 are used up by RAM expansion and Sunrise IDE. Of course, slot expanders exist, but they are an extra expense, and having all this stuff hanging out of your MSX is ugly and takes up a larger space. Sometimes an additional power supply is needed, and a ribbon cable to attach external disk drives.

The turboR benefits from the R800, built-in extra RAM, and MSX-MUSIC. The OCM has 10MHz mode, large RAM, MegaROM simulator with SCC, and MSX-MUSIC. For most other MSX models, it seems hopeless to achieve the functionality even for running all the existing MSX software.

(BTW, I forgot about Obsonet)

Instead of going nuts with 4 V9990s, and 2 9958s (why have more than one 9958 anyway when you have the V9990???) I wish there was a cartridge that combined V9990, Moonsound, RAM, fast(er) CPU, and some kind of mass storage (like SD card slot). Then I could plug it into any MSX and transform it instantly to the highest level of MSX capability.

Por nerlaska

Master (166)

Imagen del nerlaska

06-09-2008, 10:51

i'm with DamageX ... better to have one expasion (Gfx9000, Moonsound, INet, etc.) .. the XT expansion .. with that we will have a very nice MSX, right? To have a lot of VDPs is only a crazy .. only for design a game for all this VDP running at time .. will be hard .. and i think unnecessary having the Gfx9000.
Currently i'm coding with my TurboR and the GFX9000 and is really great.

Por wolf_

Ambassador_ (10088)

Imagen del wolf_

06-09-2008, 10:56

Yes, the advantage of an all-in-one cartridge is that you know everyone with that cartridge has the same config. Add some user RAM to it, SD reader, v9990, opl4, network interface, and you know you can make games for a fixed platform again. Previous fixed platform was an MSX1 with ROM carts, assuming 8kB or 16KB of memory. With the release of the MSX2 came different RAM amounts, and various sound chips, gone was your platform.

Por karloch

Prophet (2159)

Imagen del karloch

06-09-2008, 11:33

Such an integrated (GFX9000, Extra RAM, Moonsound, Internet, etc...) solution could be an standard for new developments while at same time benefit from existing software. I absolutely agree about the lack of slots for expansions is a problem for MSX users and the slot expander are not the panacea (I stopped using mine because of power consumption).

By the way, I wouldn't talk about OPL4 as "obsolete". It may not have the EAX extensions of lastest Creative cards, but it has exceptional wave-synth quality that I'm missing in my current Intel HDA. I'm lucky to own a MT-32 to fill that hole Tongue I would only wish that Moonsound used the standard MSX audio output mixed with the rest of sound chips. I know it would lose audio quiality, but I can't afford to have any more audio outputs from more devices, that why I never borthered getting a Moonsound.

Por alexworp3

Expert (126)

Imagen del alexworp3

06-09-2008, 15:19

I was very impressed by your words salamander2. and Although you are right i still believe that it is possible to create a completely new msx standard. Ofcourse it would be difficult ifnot impossible to create something to compete with the ps3, but why wouldn,t it be possible on a lower level like in the old psx and n64 days. In my opinion is gameplay more important then graphics. music isn,t an issue, because the msx scene has enough people who are capable of creating the greatest music. The big issue in my opinion is the compatibility. It would take some extra space and money to keep the console or whatever compatible with the original standard. I think it is possible to create a new standard but do we want it. The new thing will look like an msx whith the msx logo but it isn,t an msx if you know what i mean.

Por dioniso

Champion (479)

Imagen del dioniso

06-09-2008, 16:30

If a MSX3 could be a SNES, a PSX or a N64... I already have some systems that I like (NES, SNES, GC, Turbo Duo-RX, Amiga 1200, CD32, Commodore 64, Spectrum +3, Dreamcast, Gameboy, Gameboy Colour, GBA, Colecovision, etc.)

What I like about the MSX is the limits its has. When I want to play a game with better graphics I just play other consoles/computers; the range of possiblities is really big.

I like trying to get something out of 3 PSG channels, 1bit Port sound, 4 sprites on a row, 16 colours, etc. That really makes me have fun (even if the result is not as expected).

I respect your opinions. But I am not much into it.

What's the fun of having no limits?

Por Leo

Paragon (1236)

Imagen del Leo

06-09-2008, 17:19

I think this debate is very interesting, i see many people interested in getting
more from their msx in a form of a widely accepted msx (new?) standard

Allow me to give my opinion :
The problem is that any new hardware (sound/gfx) will automatically require
new software development, and this is why most of this new hardware fails to
gain all the community.

One exception : Hard disk and flash interface , they are so usefull but in fact ASCII
has normalized it with dos2.

One possible evolution is to keep the standard unchanged, we already have
everything sound/gfx/mass storage/os/community knowledge ... but make
everything run faster.
The same MSX specifications but running at few hundreds MHz ( for Z80 and VDP)
will open new applications : software mp3 , divx player, cd burning, new tricks for
video using the same old v9938/58 , will allow to develop on the real machine instead
of cross-dev.

Por alexworp3

Expert (126)

Imagen del alexworp3

06-09-2008, 18:33

Thats what I mean Leo. But An msx whith more than 3.5 Mhz and more of todays stuff is not a real msx at all. Its what dioniso said the beauty of an msx is the fact that is has a lot of limitations. Overcome them and away is the fun.

Página 1/4
| 2 | 3 | 4