New Kai Magazine Game

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By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1416)

Kai Magazine's picture

23-07-2015, 11:53

Yes, during a copy, the VDP is busy to do another VDP command such as a copy, but we use a bit transfer subroutine to move a block of bits from a memory position to another, not using any vdp commands at all.
It works on Pointless fighting (the street fighters 2 for msx2) and during the tests we have been doing, I saw the 2 copys at the same time with my own eyes.
Just check the reviews on the "Pointless fighting" techniques.

By Grauw

Ascended (10055)

Grauw's picture

23-07-2015, 18:03

Yeah, writing to VRAM and executing copy commands share the same VDP resources. Writing a byte to VRAM steals an execution slot from the copy command and makes the copy slow down. Doing both at the same time can cause a small increase in speed because of more efficient usage of the VDP’s execution slots, but certainly not double it.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

18-08-2015, 05:07

I'm sorry, but I'm extremely sceptical about this project.

Kai has produced exactly one graphic demo (System Saver, 1994) and three games for MSX2 computers: Lilo (1995), No Name (1996) and Nuts (1997). These were all written in BASIC and were presented in the MSX user meetings in Barcelona that I helped organize.

This is a very ambitious project, something that hasn't been done before. While there is no doubt that Kai can draw nice-looking graphics, I'm not so sure that his previous productions can be used as an indicator of his technical achievements. Of course, things may have changed a lot in the 20+ years since he released Lilo, but there is no indication that Kai can, all by himself, create such a project.

According to the Kickstarter page, the game will be released for these platforms (or at least the logos in the still from the video suggest that it will):

- Windows
- MSX
- Wii U
- Apple (iOS? OS X?)
- PS Vita
- PlayStation 3
- PlayStation 4
- Xbox 360
- Xbox One

The team listed in the project is composed of:

- Oscar Kenneth Albero Ingles : programmer / graphics artist / game mechanics
- Xavi Sorinas : package designer / graphics artist / script writing / game mechanics
- Jose Antonio Jimenez : animator / game mechanics
- Hector Montuenga : musician
- Daniel Sistere : musician
- David Fernandez : musician

The video shown in the project is obviously a mockup, not an actual program running standalone on any actual hardware. The expected delivery date is July 2017.

Can you please explain how a 6-person team that includes only one programmer can produce a game like this, for so many different platforms, in just two years? Even with the full 100.000 euro backing this sounds completely unrealistic.

I would believe this if, say, Relevo Videogames were the ones behind this KickStarter campaign, because they have a capable team and a long history of releasing games for 8-bit computers and modern platforms like PS Vita, iOS and Android.

Before I can pledge any money to this project I need to have much more information:

- What has Kai been doing all these years? What skills has he developed?
- What projects he has been working on and which ones has he completed? Can we see any of them?
- What experience does this team have developing games for all these platforms? Examples of their work?

Regards,

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1416)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-08-2015, 09:58

...uau...
I see you are indeed extremely sceptical.
But there are a few statements you made that must be corrected.
Not in order to convince you of anything, just to repair the damage you made with this last post.

"The video shown in the project is obviously a mockup, not an actual program running standalone on any actual hardware"
I do not know if you have seen the CURRENT video but you can see some gameplay from the PC version running on PC.
Here is the youtube video, just in case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0r7jkx02d8

I do not understand why you say it is a mockup... How??

Regarding the "completely unrealistic" comment:

The game is being developed using a MULTI PLATFORM engine (did you ever heard of UNITY, UNREAL, APP game KIT...?). This means I only code ONCE, and I can compile the project for many platforms.

The game engine is 50% programmed already, and today is working for: PC, MAC, Linux, Android, Iphone/Ipad
I can upload a video of the game running on an Android device, if necessary.

Other consoles requiere a very expensive license in order to publish any software, so, as stated in the project's page, we would only publish the game in those consoles if enough funding were to be collected.

The engine itself it is the easiest part, since, once I learned how to program on multi platform, I advanced very fast, and the complete engine will be ready on 2 or 3 months.
90 percent of the work here are the graphics, which will take us 1 to 2 years to complete.
Each character has many hi-res frames, and takes hours to draw each frame.

Anyway, as I said on the STEAM GREENLIGHT page, I am working on a free demo so people can try its gameplay on their devices. I expect it will be ready in a copule of weeks.

By the way, the project was Greenlighted by Steam Greenlight 2 weeks ago:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=483850164

Luckily the Steam Staff are not as sceptical as you are...
It was greenlighted only 10 days after being on Steam greenlight.
Needless to say that, after being Greenlighted by Steam (Valve) the game WILL be completed, and it WILL be sold arround the world, regarthless of what you think, because Steam is the most important home computer digital game store on the planet, and the sales are garanteed. We will not let pass this oportunity. No one would.

Regarding my skills:

My previous games were programmed on TURBO basic, which is MANY times faster than basic, very close to ASM speed.

If you bothered to check my facebook page (the link is in the first page of this thread) you would see I posted several information about my skills and other projects.

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dslXPf_wIxI

This was my first test programing on PC. As you can see, it is a GRADIUS version form PC on 3D.
This engine includes all the weapon system from the MSX version, and the first enemy pattern. I could have continued creating more enemys, but by then I already had all the skills I needed to create almost any project.
This engine only took me 3 or 4 weeks to create, and I never programed before on PC.

Regarding other projects:

Last year we created and presented an MSX2 demo, a port from the "illusion city" Mega CD intro, working on a standard msx2 with 64k of RAM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbzr9l4ezUU

Also I have been posting on MSX.ORG a lot, sharing techniques and new engines I am creating for MSX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErDyaJDpbU

(secret of mana engine)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_26j39LyQ

(Final fight engine)

And the monkey island MSX 2 port, which we disregarded for legal issues.

Also, the last MSX Barcelona Reunion, we presented a running demo of the Kai's Rage MSX version.

Finally, you could have found out all of this information on several sources; Kai Magazine's facebook page, msx.org, the 2 last msx barcelona reunions, etc.
You did not heardo or read ANY of this?

As you can see by now (I hope) your scepticism is based on ignorance (being disconected from the msx world, from this forum, not reading the facebook page, not knowing about multi platform languages), and not based in my capacity to fulfill this project.
And in my opinion, your post was not intended to adquiere information. It has a very intense "feeling" to be intended to discredit me, when you use words such as "extremelly", "unrealistic", "The video shown in the project is obviously a mockup, not an actual program running standalone on any actual hardware".
but if you were really interested on more information about me, so you can decide to fund the project or not, you would have risen all this questions to me directly, in private, or you could have put it another way. ANY other way.

I do not who you are, I do not know you, I do not know what reasons do you have act like this, and I am not interested on knowing them.
The reason for this message is to repair the damage you made, not to convince you of anything.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

18-08-2015, 11:37

I'm happy to see you address my questions. Not so happy about the form (you getting so defensive), but that's understandable. Let's get to work:

Kai Magazine wrote:

"The video shown in the project is obviously a mockup, not an actual program running standalone on any actual hardware"

I do not know if you have seen the CURRENT video but you can see some gameplay from the PC version running on PC.
Here is the youtube video...

I do not understand why you say it is a mockup... How??

I've seen the current video. While nice, there's no labeling showing what platform it's running on. It's obviously not an MSX version, which is what you're talking about here. That's why I say it feels like a mockup.

To do: add a caption to the video, or to the KickStarter description stating what platform you're showing.

Kai Magazine wrote:

The game is being developed using a MULTI PLATFORM engine (did you ever heard of UNITY, UNREAL, APP game KIT...?). This means I only code ONCE, and I can compile the project for many platforms.

The game engine is 50% programmed already, and today is working for: PC, MAC, Linux, Android, Iphone/Ipad
I can upload a video of the game running on an Android device, if necessary.

Cool. You don't mention this in the KickStarter page. I recommend that you explain these technical subjects in the project description. People who are going to give you money want to know how you plan to achieve what you're setting to do, and this is a good explanation on how you plan to support all these platforms. To add credibility, prepare a playable demo for a couple platforms and make them available on the KickStarter page. This is very easy to do in Unity 5.x: File -> Build Settings -> Platform -> Build.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Other consoles requiere a very expensive license in order to publish any software, so, as stated in the project's page, we would only publish the game in those consoles if enough funding were to be collected.

Fantastic. Add these licensing costs to the KickStarter page so backers will know why it costs more to release the game in these other platforms.

Kai Magazine wrote:

The engine itself it is the easiest part, since, once I learned how to program on multi platform, I advanced very fast, and the complete engine will be ready on 2 or 3 months.
90 percent of the work here are the graphics, which will take us 1 to 2 years to complete.
Each character has many hi-res frames, and takes hours to draw each frame.

A timeline in the KickStarter page will help. Something like a mini-project plan. It doesn't have to be very detailed.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Anyway, as I said on the STEAM GREENLIGHT page, I am working on a free demo so people can try its gameplay on their devices. I expect it will be ready in a copule of weeks.

Perfect. That will help a lot. However, in two weeks the KickStarter funding will have ended.

Kai Magazine wrote:

By the way, the project was Greenlighted by Steam Greenlight 2 weeks ago... Luckily the Steam Staff are not as sceptical as you are...

Having a project greenlit doesn't guarantee anything. It only means that Steam accepted your submission fee and they will consider the distribution of your game once it is completed. There are over 10.000 projects on Steam Greenlight, all in different stages of completion. Many of them still in the concept phase.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Regarding my skills:

My previous games were programmed on TURBO basic, which is MANY times faster than basic, very close to ASM speed.

MSX-BASIC KUN is still BASIC.

Kai Magazine wrote:

If you bothered to check my facebook page (the link is in the first page of this thread) you would see I posted several information about my skills and other projects.

Why should I go check your Facebook page? Why should I even know that you have a Facebook page? You're the one who shouldn't assume that people who visit KickStarter will know who you are. If you want people to understand your qualifications for creating apps in UnityScript or BASIC then you should be the one posting this information there. Don't expect potential backers to google your name in order to find out more. Put the information in their face where they can see it.

Kai Magazine wrote:

This was my first test programing on PC. As you can see, it is a GRADIUS version form PC on 3D...

Last year we created and presented an MSX2 demo, a port from the "illusion city" Mega CD intro, working on a standard msx2 with 64k of RAM...

Also I have been posting on MSX.ORG a lot, sharing techniques and new engines I am creating for MSX...

Great. Post all of these links to the KickStarter page if you believe they can help you get more backers. You shouldn't expect people to go search YouTube to try and find out what stuff you've done.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Finally, you could have found out all of this information on several sources; Kai Magazine's facebook page, msx.org, the 2 last msx barcelona reunions, etc.
You did not heardo or read ANY of this?

Sure, I could, if I had bothered. But why should I spend time researching the credentials of every one who says they have an idea or a project? You're the one asking people to back your project, so it's your job to show us why we should be giving you money.

Kai Magazine wrote:

As you can see by now (I hope) your scepticism is based on ignorance (being disconected from the msx world, from this forum, not reading the facebook page, not knowing about multi platform languages), and not based in my capacity to fulfill this project.

My scepticism is based on having seen your previous productions, your lack of experience in developing complete games, and in the fact that after so many years you're still programming in BASIC. Yes, Unity will make it very easy to build the binary for several platforms, but that won't help you with the MSX version at all. There's also the inconsistent and unrealistic rewards table on KickStarter:

- 20,000 euro: MSX and PC version
- 50,000 euro: PlayStation 3, Xbox 360 and Mac
- 60,000 euro: PlayStation 4 and Xbox One
- 70,000 euro: Wii U and PlayStation Vita
- 80,000 euro: Android and OS X

I see several serious problems with this table:

- 20,000 euro for 2 years of work, divided by 6 people (assuming you all get the same amount) is about 1,600 euro per person per year, or about 140 euro per month. You're obviously not leaving your day jobs and will be working on this in your free time. Not that this is a problem (it's after all a hobby project), but this will no doubt cause major scheduling issues.

- 50,000 euro reward includes a "Mac" version. 80,000 euro reward also includes an "OS X" version as well as Android. I will assume that one of the Mac/OS X versions meant iOS. Why aren't these three versions bundled together in the 20,000 euro reward? After all, Unity allows you to build OS X/iOS/Android binaries for free (just choose a different platform in the Build menu). A Google Play license for distribution costs $25. An Apple Developer Connection subscription (required to publish apps in the App Store) is about $100. The 50,000 and 80,000 euro amounts don't seem to align with the project financial requirements.

- 50,000 euro for PlayStation 3 / Xbox 360 versions: a Unity licenses for PlayStation and Xbox cost around $15,000, which translates to a bit over 13,500 euro each. That covers the 30,000 euro difference between the 20,000 reward and this one, but you have a bigger problem: you need to get your concept approved by Sony/Microsoft before you can self-publish them. Both companies are trying to keep the bar high regards to quality, so only "qualified game developers" (Microsoft) or "established development companies" (Sony) are approved.

- 60,000 euro for PlayStation 4 an Xbox One: unrealistic, because each of these Unity licenses will cost an extra $15,000.

- 70,000 euro for Wii U and PlayStation Vita: same as the previous reward. Each of these licenses cost $15,000. At this point you're paying for 6 Unity licenses that cost $15,000 each, for a total of around $90,000, but you're backed for $77,000 (70,000 EUR in USD).

Kai Magazine wrote:

And in my opinion, your post was not intended to adquiere information. It has a very intense "feeling" to be intended to discredit me, when you use words such as "extremelly", "unrealistic", "The video shown in the project is obviously a mockup, not an actual program running standalone on any actual hardware".

No. I don't have anything against you. I just don't think that you're carefully planned this. I understand that you're hurt by the words in my message, but what I wrote are the thoughts that come to my mind when I read the project's KickStarter page.

Kai Magazine wrote:

...you would have risen all this questions to me directly, in private

I would, had this been a private conversation. When you're posting in a public forum for everybody else to comment, then expect that people will comment in public.

Kai Magazine wrote:

I do not who you are, I do not know you, I do not know what reasons do you have act like this, and I am not interested on knowing them.

You may not know who I am, but I know very well who you are. As I said, I don't have anything against you. I think you're a good guy and that you released some fun games in the past (we laughed our asses off with the flying penises in your game many years ago). The KickStarter page just doesn't convince me, for the reasons I mention above.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1416)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-08-2015, 12:30

I feel atacked because your first post was oviously destructive saying it is impossible and unrealistic.
You can give your opinion in a constructive way or destructive way. You have chosen the latter.
And again, I must address several incorrect statements you made in this last post:

We did not just submitted the game project to Steam Greenlight, but it has been approved already!
Valve contacted me to start the process of uploading the game to their store. This is a done deal.
Ckeck the link I posted before.

The license costs you stated are out of date; there are several new licenses for indie developers wich are much cheaper.
The Sony and Microsoft Digital stores are adopting the same philosophy that Android and Iphone stores do:
To bet for Indie developers.
You can see many Indie games in this stores already.

Also, you contacted me via MSX.ORG, not via Kickstarter, and you claim to know me very well. but you oviously not. You started posting on MSX.ORG 6 months ago, and you do not know anything about what I have been doing, but most people here do.

It is ok to want more information, and you can ask for it if you do not want to research, but many of your statements are incorrect, and to write statements about someone you should at least have done your research previously.
Considering this unresearched incorrect statements, and the tone in which you wrote them, it is ovious that I get defensive and alienated.
Offcourse you can give your opinion in a public forum, but it is the way you did it that I find out of line. As I said before you can do it in many ways. Any other way than the one you did would have been better.

Regarding the funding:
20.000 for the PC and MSX versions. Divided by 6? why?
If I am creating all the code and 70 percent of the graphics (an overall of 90 percent of the work) Why do you divide by 6?
Those 20.000 were to quit my job and dedicate myself full time to the project.

It is ovious by now that we will not reach any goal, but the project will be done anyway.
We will do some serious cuts in characters, map areas and lenght, and I will not be able to quit my job, but we will do it.
There is no doubt about it.
As a matter of fact, having already 4 areas created, 50% of the main engine complete (the combat part is almost complete, the rpg part is yet to be done), and several characters, there is no way we are turning back now.

Regarding the objectives table, it is not uncommon at all for many other projects/games on kickstarter.

Anyway, you wrote too many statements that are incorrect, and all of them negative. This feels more like an attack than an opinion.
You can either back the project or not, it is up to you, but to say that it is unrealistic, impossible, etc... That is out of line.
Inform yourself well before making those kinds of statements (too late now).

Finally, I do not expect that backers research about me before backing, etc. But I do expect that someone who claims to know me well, and states that this project is unrealistic and impossible, does.

The game WILL be released regardless of the kickstarter funding.
What changes is that I will not be able to quit my job and the game will suffer serious cuts.

Constructive criticism is difficult but helps developement.
Destructive criticism is easy, and even more when you ignore the facts, and this is what puts down many wanderfull MSX projects that have been started but never finished.
Way to go!

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous's picture

18-08-2015, 12:49

Kai Magazine wrote:

We did not just submitted the game project to Steam Greenlight, but it has been approved already!

I understand that. The "10.000 projects" number I quoted in my post are only the approved projects. I could submit a project now, pay my fee, ask a few friends on IRC to endorse it, and have a completely non-existant project approved easily. Again, being greenlit means nothing.

Kai Magazine wrote:

You started posting on MSX.ORG 6 months ago

On this account. My ag0ny account (maybe that one rings a bell) has an unrecoverable email address.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Anyway, you wrote too many statements that are incorrect, and all of them negative. This feels more like an attack than an opinion.

Then maybe you should start addressing them instead of just stating that they're incorrect.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Constructive criticism is difficult but helps developement. Destructive criticism is easy, and even more when you ignore the facts, and this is what puts down many wanderfull MSX projects that have been started but never finished. Way to go!

You'll have to grow up and learn to handle being hurt.

Regards,

PS: I especially like this part of your KickStarter campaign:

Quote:

Risks and challenges

There are no risks involved in this project.

Obviously you don't think you have any competition, nor that other real-life commitments will impact the viability of the project.

By Latok

msx guru (3836)

Latok's picture

18-08-2015, 13:01

Guys, I'd say you've made your points clear now. Ik will not tolerate further personal discussions. Javi is sceptical en Kai is going to prove him wrong. End of story. This thread can now focus again on the development of the game.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1416)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-08-2015, 13:06

Did I not address all your incorrect statements?

Having the project approved to be sold on Steam means nothing??
Once the game is complete, sales are assured. This means A LOT.
A project needs both funding, and a good distribuitor or sales platform. We failed in the first area (but we will do it anyway, and we will try another campaign on indiegogo in a few months) but we have the second most important thing, (a good distribuitor or sales platform) and that is VERY important.

The quote you posted about the kickstarter is incomplete:

"There are no risks involved in this project.
90 % of the work involves the creation of the characther's animations and city backgrounds.
The only possible delays would be related to graphic development, but fortunatelly we are part of a community of old school game developers and we have many supporters and capable people willing to help.
Regarding the physical release of the game; we have developed and distributed several games worldwide before, this is not our first game, we know how to do it and what is to be expected during the development process.
Regarding the console, Android and OSX versions, those are subjected to the approval of the respective gaming platforms in which to be released, but since all the material is original and complies with all the game platforms regulations, there will not be any problems."

And now please stop posting ill informed negative propaganda about our project, this is getting ridiculous!

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1416)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-08-2015, 13:08

Latok, I saw your post after finishing my last post.
I have a right to defend myself against negative incorrect statements.
I have finished now. I will not engage him anymore.

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