Use msx floppies on PC

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By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

19-10-2020, 22:13

Some rom and dsk files are enhanced versions of the real thing and that is why they don not work on a real MSX
That are games for a non excisting msx 4
Sometimes roms and dsk files are altered to work on a particular version emulator and that is the reason they do not work on a real MSX. Not the rom and dsk should have been latered, the emulator is wrong.
With the right loader and or menu program it does not matter Sony or Philips... it will work
There are plenty dsk and rom files free on the internet. If it doesn't work on the real thing, delete it.
This all is the reason that some MSX clubs in the Netherlands will not allow emulators, some do what MSX machines don't
If we are not carefull there will not be dsk and rom files that work on msx machines anymore.
All altered for bad emulators to get them working on that emulator or altered untill the non excisting MSX 4
I can test them on four different MSX machines and if they do not work on either of them... they are bad and I delete them and look for a good version.

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

19-10-2020, 22:38

In the past I made 'Hoogeveense Menu's'
Hoogeveense menu's
It was published in the most important dutch MSX magazine msxcomputermagazine nr. 73 feb 1993
With the right menu or loader it doesn't matter Sony or Philips MSX
It should not matter with the right emulator, it should be able what Hoogeveense Menu's can.
There are only a few standards, not 150 different once
An emulator should be made for a few standards, just like MSX itself

By Manuel

Ascended (17075)

Manuel's picture

19-10-2020, 23:45

I know it's probably useless to tell you this, but why not... The goal of openMSX was not to 'behave like some MSX', but to imitate as exactly as possible specific MSX models.

That may not fit with your needs or expectations. So, I'm sorry that openMSX can't do what you want, so enjoy RuMSX. Have fun.

On the other hand, please do not say things about openMSX or blueMSX or MSX or emulation in general that are simply not true. Let me list some of these things, so that it's clear for people who read this later:

Quote:

A perfectly dumped rom works on a real MSX!!!

and

Quote:

Many rom files can't work on a real MSX
These ROM files ain't MSX rom files
This way a MSX on PC isn't a MSX emulation, but emulations of machines that do not excist
The real MSX image is one that works on a real MSX too
If it doesn't work on a real MSX, it ain't a emulation

Not true. In a ROM cartridge there is hardware. Without that hardware (only the ROM file), it will not work on a real MSX. You can crack/modify the ROM to work on some real MSX'es, if they have enough RAM or if you add an extra cartridge (like an SCC).
An emulator emulates also the hardware in the cartridge, so that it runs like the real cartridge.

Quote:

RuMSX is enough and does not need catapult or another program to work and bat files are not needed.

openMSX and blueMSX also do not need these. But, admittedly, openMSX comes with a built in menu that is different than the usual Windows user interface. If you can't handle that, you could try Catapult, or another emulator.
You can open the menu by clicking on the menu button at the top left. If it's gone, just move the cursor there and it will re-appear. You can navigate out of menus by right-clicking with your mouse. It's not hard, really. But yeah, different from what you might be used to.

Quote:

There is no game that works only on a specified MSX2 machine! It works on every MSX2 machine.

Not true.

Examples:
Some games need more RAM than others. Not every MSX2 machine has the same amount of RAM.
Some games are buggy and require memory to be in a certain slot.
Some games are on disk and not all MSX2 machines have a disk drive.
Some games are on double sided disks, but not all MSX2 machines have a double sided disk drive.

Quote:

Maybe openMSX can't emulate a MSX2 standard and openMSX does need to know on wich MSX machine the game must work. Perhaps openMSX cannot emulate a complete standard.

openMSX emulates beyond the standard. As I wrote at the top, it emulates specific MSX machines. There are many differences between machines that are not in the standard. They matter. They determine whether MSX software actually runs correctly on machine A and not on machine B, although both are of the same standard.

Note that there are a few generic MSX machines that come with openMSX, which are not modeled after a real MSX model. This is more like what you get by default on RuMSX.

Quote:

Perhaps openMSX does need that? for every type MSX a different configuration and bat file?

No. You just have to tell openMSX which MSX machine you want to emulate. See further in next point.

Quote:

Wenn I download a rom file or a dsk file, I can click on it and it will start with RuMSX, but with openMSX that seems to be impossible. RuMSX and blueMSX can launch dsk and rom files!!!

By default openMSX emulates the C-BIOS MSX2+ machine. You have seen it also in RuMSX. And that machine doesn't support disk drives or cassette or even MSX-BASIC. Just because C-BIOS was created by MSX hobbyists and they aren't far enough in development.

The reason that you get C-BIOS MSX2+ by default in openMSX, is because of legal reasons. We, as openMSX team, are not allowed to distributed the ROM files that are inside MSX machines, because we do not own the copyright and we did not get permission from Microsoft. Apparently the author of RuMSX did get permission, or (more likely) he doesn't care.

We do care and that comes with a price: you have to find these system ROMs yourself and add them to openMSX to run other MSX machines than C-BIOS MSX2+. Other MSX machines that do support all the usual disk drives and cassette tapes.
It's not that hard to do, but if you don't want to, I can understand that. But now you know why.

Quote:

Some rom and dsk files are enhanced versions of the real thing and that is why they don not work on a real MSX
That are games for a non excisting msx 4
Sometimes roms and dsk files are altered to work on a particular version emulator and that is the reason they do not work on a real MSX.

Can you name an example?

I think these are VERY rare. Most likely, they are simply buggy and only work on certain (real) MSX models or require extra (real) hardware when being run on a real MSX.

Quote:

I can test them on four different MSX machines and if they do not work on either of them... they are bad and I delete them and look for a good version.

Emulators like openMSX, can help you to test them on 150 different machines and help you debug why they work on some and not on others. And then fix them to work on more.

Anyway, probably you don't care about this at all and for you this post was a waste of my time.

Fine! Have fun with your real and emulated MSXes! Enjoy!

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

20-10-2020, 18:39

Quote:

Quote:
There is no game that works only on a specified MSX2 machine! It works on every MSX2 machine.

Not true.

Examples:
Some games need more RAM than others. Not every MSX2 machine has the same amount of RAM.
Some games are buggy and require memory to be in a certain slot.
Some games are on disk and not all MSX2 machines have a disk drive.
Some games are on double sided disks, but not all MSX2 machines have a double sided disk drive.

It was my respons to the claim that openMSX has 150 different configuratiojns were people should choose from, bur there are only a few different MSX standards, not 150. Besides that... a game made for one standard can work on every standard. A MSX1 game works on all MSX machines above that.
It is true! Games are made for a standard, in that standard are thousands of machines or even millions. A MSX1 game is made for a machine with a certain minimum and maximum amount of RAM Some games need more RAM than others, but always within the range of the standard. The one MSX1 standard game, works on MSX2 too and on a MSX2+, etc. Only one is needed, not 150.
There is no game that works only on a specified MSX2 machine! It works on every MSX2 machine!!!
I say it again.
What game does only work on one of the 150? On one specified machine?
A MSX game is made according to a standard and works on all machines within that standard... for every MSX1 and above or for every MSX2 and above. There are not games for only the Philips 8250 or only Philips MSX machines.
There are not 150 standards and games are not made in 150 different flavors

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

20-10-2020, 18:44

Quote:

openMSX emulates beyond the standard. As I wrote at the top, it emulates specific MSX machines. There are many differences between machines that are not in the standard. They matter. They determine whether MSX software actually runs correctly on machine A and not on machine B, although both are of the same standard.

Note that there are a few generic MSX machines that come with openMSX, which are not modeled after a real MSX model. This is more like what you get by default on RuMSX.

So, openMSX is NOT a MSX emulator, but openMSX is a collection of 150 emulators.
It has a Philips nms 8250 emulator and a Sony HB-75 emulator, etc, etc.

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

20-10-2020, 18:49

Quote:

The reason that you get C-BIOS MSX2+ by default in openMSX, is because of legal reasons. We, as openMSX team, are not allowed to distributed the ROM files that are inside MSX machines, because we do not own the copyright and we did not get permission from Microsoft. Apparently the author of RuMSX did get permission, or (more likely) he doesn't care.

There are many MSX emulators besides RuMSX that have MSX system ROM to start with.
Now that you mention it, openMSX is the only one that I know that hasn't But I know only a dozen.

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

20-10-2020, 18:53

Quote:

Quote:
Some rom and dsk files are enhanced versions of the real thing and that is why they don not work on a real MSX
That are games for a non excisting msx 4
Sometimes roms and dsk files are altered to work on a particular version emulator and that is the reason they do not work on a real MSX.

Can you name an example?

I think these are VERY rare. Most likely, they are simply buggy and only work on certain (real) MSX models or require extra (real) hardware when being run on a real MSX.

No they work only on a pc and never on a MSX. That is my point. There is no MSX were it works on. They should not be called MSX games. I have seen many enhanced rom files, that only work on pc. People can think that it is a MSX game, but it isn't I stand for the real thing, not for MSX games that only work on PC's

By Manuel

Ascended (17075)

Manuel's picture

20-10-2020, 19:12

msx4ever,com wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
There is no game that works only on a specified MSX2 machine! It works on every MSX2 machine.

Not true.

Examples:
Some games need more RAM than others. Not every MSX2 machine has the same amount of RAM.
Some games are buggy and require memory to be in a certain slot.
Some games are on disk and not all MSX2 machines have a disk drive.
Some games are on double sided disks, but not all MSX2 machines have a double sided disk drive.

It was my respons to the claim that openMSX has 150 different configuratiojns were people should choose from, bur there are only a few different MSX standards, not 150. Besides that... a game made for one standard can work on every standard. A MSX1 game works on all MSX machines above that.
It is true! Games are made for a standard, in that standard are thousands of machines or even millions. A MSX1 game is made for a machine with a certain minimum and maximum amount of RAM Some games need more RAM than others, but always within the range of the standard. The one MSX1 standard game, works on MSX2 too and on a MSX2+, etc. Only one is needed, not 150.
There is no game that works only on a specified MSX2 machine! It works on every MSX2 machine!!!
I say it again.
What game does only work on one of the 150? On one specified machine?
A MSX game is made according to a standard and works on all machines within that standard... for every MSX1 and above or for every MSX2 and above. There are not games for only the Philips 8250 or only Philips MSX machines.
There are not 150 standards and games are not made in 150 different flavors

What you say would be true if all software would be programmed against the standard. Unfortunately that is not the case. See https://www.msx.org/wiki/MSX_compatibility_problems

Also, the standard prescribes a minimum configuration. Some software requires more than the minimum configuration. It means it will not work on all MSX machines, even though these machines are made exactly according to the standard.

By Manuel

Ascended (17075)

Manuel's picture

20-10-2020, 19:12

msx4ever,com wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
Some rom and dsk files are enhanced versions of the real thing and that is why they don not work on a real MSX
That are games for a non excisting msx 4
Sometimes roms and dsk files are altered to work on a particular version emulator and that is the reason they do not work on a real MSX.

Can you name an example?

I think these are VERY rare. Most likely, they are simply buggy and only work on certain (real) MSX models or require extra (real) hardware when being run on a real MSX.

No they work only on a pc and never on a MSX. That is my point. There is no MSX were it works on. They should not be called MSX games. I have seen many enhanced rom files, that only work on pc. People can think that it is a MSX game, but it isn't I stand for the real thing, not for MSX games that only work on PC's

Please give one example.

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

20-10-2020, 19:14

Quote:

Quote:
I can test them on four different MSX machines and if they do not work on either of them... they are bad and I delete them and look for a good version.

Emulators like openMSX, can help you to test them on 150 different machines and help you debug why they work on some and not on others. And then fix them to work on more.

Anyway, probably you don't care about this at all and for you this post was a waste of my time.

Fine! Have fun with your real and emulated MSXes! Enjoy!

A original MSX game is made according to the MSX standard. A standard is there so that a developer does not have to make 150 different versions. But only ONE. If it is according the standard, you need only ONE machine to test it on.
If a game only works on one specific machine, it is junk. If it is made for MSX1, it works on every MSX1 machine and all above. A developer makes only one version. Test it on one and it's okay. Sometimes there was a little misstake, but with one poke in the menu it works for all MSX computers and not for only the Philips NMS 8245
It is a shame that there are 150 different emulators needed, for every machine one, instead of a MSX emulator.
Common people can't use openMSX It is too difficult.
RuMSX is easy and you only need a cheap pc with a internal diskdrive.
I just bought a pentium 4 with internal floppydrive for 32 euro. RuMSX works one hour later on it with floppies.
A MSX1 in the Netherlands must cost 80 euro and a MSX with one diskdrive costs 180 euro and the working of the drive is not certain. My NMS 8250 with 7 Hz onboard and two working drives must cost 300 euro? My 8245 should be 200 euro
MSX is only for the rich. So, buy a old pc with internal floppydrive... 40 or 50 euro tops. RuMSX is for free.
Thursday I get a PC with two internal floppydrives. I can copy two physical MSX disks on a pc with RuMSX

Sure, openMSX is too difficult for the common person and I hope that by selling old pc's with many games and RuMSX I can keep MSX alive... a little bit?

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