Use msx floppies on PC

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By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

22-10-2020, 15:58

@Manuel
You still owe me an answer.
What was wrong with what I said about other emulators?
What? and indicate what was wrong and prove otherwise or make your excuse!
Yes, perhaps hamlet will bann me, but I want an answer to that serious charge.
Evil

By Meits

Scribe (6049)

Meits's picture

22-10-2020, 18:03

msx4ever,com: I doubt you have a clear idea of what openMSX is. openMSX is a near perfect emulator and yet you try to tear that down. I don't understand your reasons.

I haven't read everything in this thread since it hurts my eyes (sorry). But openMSX is kind of a framework from which you can start any MSX machine you have the rom files of. What's not to like about that? I can understand that you can't set it up easily cuz yeah, it's not out of the box; searching systemroms and putting them in the right folder to have openMSX run something else than c-bios.

Almost the complete MSX comunity loves openMSX and uses it a lot. It adds to their experience and it aids them in their creation of software thanks to its plugins and terminal. And then there's you openly attacking it. If you were right, you wouldn't be the only one complaining.

As long as you keep it descent nor Hamlet nor I will ban you.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5471)

JohnHassink's picture

23-10-2020, 06:45

I will ban if there's one more instance of sealioning or some other form of forum pollution, though. Evil

By Takamichi

Champion (418)

Takamichi's picture

23-10-2020, 14:49

I called for attention of my old friend Lex Lechz because msx4ever,com might pay some respect and behave rationally but he didn't show respect to the RuMSX developer. That was annoying.
Windows crashing MSX disk's header is a serious problem. I destroyed Fray and F-nano2' diskettes and had to repair by copying the header from another disk of same game. It was me who asked Lex Lechz that Disk Manager should display warning before reading a disk, and early versions did.

By Manuel

Ascended (17078)

Manuel's picture

24-10-2020, 00:44

msx4ever,com wrote:

@Manuel
You still owe me an answer.
What was wrong with what I said about other emulators?
What? and indicate what was wrong and prove otherwise or make your excuse!
Yes, perhaps hamlet will bann me, but I want an answer to that serious charge.
Evil

You have a certain strong way to express your opinion. But you do it in such a way that you completely destroy the image of an emulator. It's a bit painful. The following things are a small selection of things I have problems with:

Quote:

Many rom files can't work on a real MSX
These ROM files ain't MSX rom files

and

Quote:

A perfectly dumped rom that does not work on a real MSX machine? It only can work on a PC and that is a MSX rom?
A perfectly dumped rom works on a real MSX!!!

As I explained before, a ROM file is only an image of the code that is inside the ROM chip. Most ROM images require additional hardware to work properly. I think it's a bad idea to not call them MSX ROM files.

For disk images you said the same. If it doesn't work it doesn't mean it's not an MSX disk image. It means the software is not fully compatible or suitable for your specific real MSX. You have a too optimistic view of the MSX standard.

(You kept repeating this point about standards and I won't quote all of them.)

Quote:

Wenn I install openMSX and click on the icon... nothing happens. How should I select a floppydrive? I have to study before I can do that.

You don't need to study. As explained (and also is in short explained on the openMSX website in the FAQ) you just have to copy the system ROM images to the right location and you can click the menu (or use Catapult, which is included with openMSX on Windows) to change machine to a model that supports disks.
I also said I agreed it's not very intuitive like this. But it doesn't mean you can't run disk (images) with openMSX.

Quote:

Maybe openMSX can't emulate a MSX2 standard and openMSX does need to know on wich MSX machine the game must work. Perhaps openMSX cannot emulate a complete standard. But that is a shortcoming of openMSX.

So, not true. You expect from an emulator that it emulates *some* MSX that complies to the standard. But openMSX (and also RuMSX and blueMSX) emulates different machines with different MSX hardware. All these emulators have some generic MSX machines, which you use on RuMSX. You seem to completely miss this point.

The MSX standards have a lot of room for variation. So when emulating MSX you must choose some configuration. You can choose a different variation by selecting a different MSX model to emulate or some generic (fantasy) model that is made to run as much software as possible.

Quote:

Perhaps openMSX does need that? for every type MSX a different configuration and bat file?

No bat files are needed at all. You keep saying that, but it's not needed.

Quote:

Wenn I download a rom file or a dsk file, I can click on it and it will start with RuMSX, but with openMSX that seems to be impossible. RuMSX and blueMSX can launch dsk and rom files!!!

So can openMSX. Drop it on the openMSX Window, select it in Catapult, select it in the OSD menu, drop it on openMSX exe, whatever. Of course it runs these files.... But the openMSX installer doesn't make file associations for dsk or ROM files to automatically run them with openMSX. Most people find that annoying, as they run multiple emulators.
If you really want that for openMSX, you could select 'open File with...' and then save that setting in Windows. (As far as I know, I don't use Windows much.)

Quote:

Some rom and dsk files are enhanced versions of the real thing and that is why they don not work on a real MSX

and

Quote:

I have seen many enhanced rom files, that only work on pc. People can think that it is a MSX game, but it isn't I stand for the real thing, not for MSX games that only work on PC's

You failed to give even one example of this. I suspect this is just a misunderstanding from your part about what the software requires. Please give examples so we can investigate.

Quote:

So, openMSX is NOT a MSX emulator, but openMSX is a collection of 150 emulators.

openMSX and blueMSX and even RuMSX emulates different MSX machines. That's what we call an MSX emulator.

Quote:

For as far as I know openMSX doesn't support a datarecorder on a pc either.

The closest thing to it: you can record your tape to a digital audio file and use it with openMSX as a tape. Almost no other MSX emulator can do that.

Quote:

It is not honest to say openMSX is a emulator for playing games they already have on a cartridge and they have a MSX computer too for yteh systems rom. You can't be serious or you thing I am stupid.

You claimed that there was no legal use of openMSX, because you need system ROMs and game ROMs/disks. But that's not true. I do agree most people will not dump their own ROMs, but it's definitely possible and makes it possible to use openMSX fully and legally.

Quote:

Getting started with openMSX has little to do with knowledge of the MSX It has more to do with technical knowledge about MSX computers, writing bat files. Working on DOS prompt

openMSX is actually set up as much as possible as how real MSXes work. You emulate real MSXes. You put stuff in their emulated actual cartridge slots. Or in their actual disk drives. Depending on which model you emulate.

Quote:

MSX itself is very easy to start with. MSX basic is easy.

I don't think so. For you it is, because you are used to it. But not for a 10-year old. They have to understand what to type in MSX-BASIC and what it all means. This is command line to the utmost! So, this remark makes no sense at all.

The same goes for using Windows. It's just what you are used to. I find it much harder to use Windows than other things like Linux, just because I'm not used to Windows and I am very much used to Linux. It's the same for you and everyone.

Still, I do understand and agree to your point that if you let people put a floppy in an MSX and turn it on to run a game from a menu on the disk is very easy. If you can do that with an emulator like RuMSX, I do agree that's very easy. So for this use case, it's almost perfect.
But openMSX (and most other emulators as well) supports many more use cases.

Quote:

It is not suitable as MSX emulator for nobody. It is just too hard and MSX is easy.

You have seen that most people do not agree with this. But for your particular use case, your solution is a better fit. It doesn't mean openMSX isn't suitable for anybody. You are over-generalizing your own use case.

Quote:

In my zip file was only the msi. So I did not missed it, it was not there. And no manuel either.

The MSI installs both openMSX, Catapult and a HTML manual (even with a shortcut to it in the Windows start menu), which is also available online.

Quote:

Further more is RuMSX less picky than diskmanager and disks that diskmanager can't read work with RuMSX fine.

That's strange, both are done by the same author (Lex Lechz). But I can't tell without getting the disk image to look what's going on. Still, better that Rudolf responds to this.

The most shocking things to me you say about other emulators (and mostly openMSX) is on your website:

Quote:

It looks like an MSX1 basic application from the eighties and only with a lot of puzzling you can do something with it.

What??

Quote:

Made for and by people who love linux / unix and not so much MSX.

Do you have any idea about Linux at all? Anyway, beside from that, the authors love MSX through and through. So, this is very insulting.

Quote:

An MSX works with cassettes and for years with diskettes, but openMSX cannot do anything with it.

Wrong. as already explained many times.

Quote:

If openMSX were only a bit user-friendly it would be possible to open a * .rom file with openMSX.
So right click on the * .rom file and open with openMSX.
You get a black screen and the blue c-bios screen without buttons, menu or prompt.
All you can do is close the cross and openMSX again.

Wrong in several ways:
- if you open a ROM file with openMSX, even with only C-BIOS, it will just run it. If it didn't, please tell me which ROM file that was
- you may have missed the menu button at the top left? Click it and the menu will open
- if you prefer a more Windows like interface, then indeed start Catapult, which comes with openMSX for users who prefer it. It's not mandatory at all.

Quote:

When I press one of those buttons they disappear and also the menu at the top left.
I only see one possibility ... the cross at the top right.

If you move the mouse to the top left you can open the menu again.
This is done to not have the menu button in the MSX screen all the time.

Quote:

In the menu you make a choice and if you want to go back to the menu ... I can't.
You stay in that submenu.

and

Quote:

I can't get out of submenus other than by closing openMSX and starting again.

You can go back with the 2nd mouse button of your PC for instance. Or the ESC key. The menu can be controlled with keyboard as well.

Quote:

It only works with * .rom files? MSX does not have * .rom files. That is an MSX emulator?

MSX has a lot of cartridges. On an emulator you have ROM files. So this doesn't make sense.
And as explained many times before, openMSX supports the most media of all MSX emulators: ROM cartridges (ROM images), disks (disk images), tapes (WAV and CAS tape images), laser discs (OGG video files with extra data), hard disks (hard disk images), SD cards (SD card images)...

Quote:

Then I can choose the rom file on the desktop. But that is not enough for openMSX and you get a menu to choose the mapper type. What is that? I choose Auto-detect (guess) and leave it to openMSX

As explained before: a ROM image contains actually only the program in the ROM chip. But there is all kinds of hardware on a physical ROM cartridge that must also be emulated to emulate the actual ROM cartridge with this ROM program. This hardware is called the mapper type. Apparently the ROM image you used wasn't known to openMSX (it knows about a lot) and thus you must select it yourself or let openMSX guess.

Quote:

But... then I get to the opening screen, with no menu, buttons or prompt.
The cross at the top right to close openMSX is the only choice.

I guess the guess was wrong. Which ROM image was this?
I doubt it works in any MSX emulator without specifying the correct mapper type.

And again, the cross is not the only choice. You know that now.

Quote:

After so many years for the common person a completely useless emulator.

The fact that it takes you some getting used to does not mean it's useless. This is insulting for the authors and an overstatement.

Quote:

An MSX also works for someone without special knowledge and an msx emulator should be able to do that too.

Only if you have tons of disks with menus that you can just boot or a pile of cartridges that just run. Not in any other case.

In conclusion: for your particular use case (start software from floppies), RuMSX is very suitable and other emulators are less suitable. Fine. Say that. but don't say the others aren't real MSX emulators. Then you just didn't understand the point of them, in my opinion.

Just a question though: how do you run ROM games from the floppies? Use cracks? How do you get the proper SCC sound on Konami games then? Or prevent slowdowns that some cracks have? How do you run large games like SD-Snatcher or Xak or Dragon Slayer VI? Run some cracks? Do you get the proper FM sound? How do you run original disks that have a copy protection? Do you get the proper MSX-AUDIO and MSX-MUSIC Moonblaster stereo in the proper quality?
I guess all these things are not part of your use case... Still, enjoy! I am not trying to let you use openMSX. I am just trying to make clear why things are as they are and what you are missing. Just keep using and promoting RuMSX, with keeping some respect for the other emulators. That would be so more friendly.

By mcolom

Master (155)

mcolom's picture

24-10-2020, 01:46

openMSX is a piece of software which reproduces the behavior of hardware components (CPU, VDP, ...) which are found in MSX machines and thus is is able to emulate many specific MSX machines. And without any doubt, at this moment it's the best MSX emulator out there.
If the problem is that one wants to "switch on and play", I don't see why this is related to emulators. In that case the solution is simple: just use one of the many FPGA-based systems (or bare-metal) in the market, insert your cartridge and play. Or program with BASIC, or whatever. A real piece of hardware, like a real MSX machine, a new one.
But again, I don't see why this is related to the excelent emulators like openMSX and others which are of great value to the community.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9826)

wolf_'s picture

25-10-2020, 18:58

Let me stir the soup a bit more then.

The story will make sense, so bear with me. For years I've been making graphics tools (for internal use) that include map editors, tile makers, sprite makers etc. As a creative person I always have this feeling of 'oh, I also need this and that'. As soon as that happens, your GUI is basically a dead stick, as a visual interface is usually most of the work. It takes more code to have a button that clears a tile with a specific colour (so you also need a kind of colour picker) than it is to make the actual function/method/void/procedure that does this.

Since a few years I've been making all kinds of tools using a simple scripting language. Nothing fancy, just a command with parameters, it's my own language even, so yeah: it's simple. The advantage of this paradigm is that it's a thousand times easier to add another command to the parser/engine than it is to add the GUI for that command.

Just an example: if I'd want to generate a one dimensional curve (think of a mountain range) that could be used for e.g. camera movement then there're multiple things you could do: start with noise, which requires a seed parameter. Then you need a filter with a frequency parameter, and somewhere you'll also need a normalizer (as filtering noise also means you'll loose most of the output). Now, you could apply the filter multiple times in succession, which is in fact what you should do in this case, but how many times? So, visually, you'll need a GUI with controls for random seed, an undefined amount of filters, and a normalizer (should you want it!). The 'undefined' bit is the crux here. If you want a visual interface that can perform actions multiple times based on what the user wants, then this visual interface really becomes a thing. Having a script however just means you let the user type what he wants, et voila: there's the curve.

"Still with us, Brett?" (Alien - came out this day, 25 October 1979, even!)

So, if you want a feature-rich tool, then at some point the visual interface will be a kind of bottleneck, and openMSX is not really an exception to this. Probably because of the command line in openMSX, I managed to push the devs into adding audio-channel exporting, and there's even a vibrato command. Years ago I also managed to have them add a kind of password typer, as I disliked how dumb Usas' own keyboard code was. Wink I'm not all that sure they'd have added all that if they would've had to make a visual interface for all that as well - if such an interface would make sense anyway.

So, as for openMSX vs ruMSX, it's probably more of a debate between simple and feature-rich, rather than good or not good. If all you want is playing a game, no questions asked, then yes: there are probably emulators around that are slightly easier to use. Whether these simpler emulators are 100% legal regarding system ROMs, I couldn't even care less. Probably most are not legal. I wouldn't say it's very difficult to load a game with catapult though. However, if you want special features, unconventional features, developer features 'n such, then the openMSX console is probably the reason these are there already and will continue to be added in the future.

However, no matter what, openMSX is an emulator. Not calling it an emulator just because a kid couldn't deal with it is like is like saying an 80 meter superyacht is not boat just because it has a computer with five LED-screens at the helm, while your own row boat has nothing but oars.

As for penguins on this website; I'm quite sure that has nothing to do with Linux, and all with Konami's tendency to add penguins to their MSX-games.

By eisbaer23

Supporter (13)

eisbaer23's picture

25-10-2020, 18:41

Sealions, bears, penguins... This isn't a forum, it's a freaking zoo.

By FiXato

Scribe (1639)

FiXato's picture

26-10-2020, 23:11

Manuel wrote:
msx4ever,com wrote:

Wenn I download a rom file or a dsk file, I can click on it and it will start with RuMSX, but with openMSX that seems to be impossible. RuMSX and blueMSX can launch dsk and rom files!!!

So can openMSX. Drop it on the openMSX Window, select it in Catapult, select it in the OSD menu, drop it on openMSX exe, whatever. Of course it runs these files.... But the openMSX installer doesn't make file associations for dsk or ROM files to automatically run them with openMSX. Most people find that annoying, as they run multiple emulators.
If you really want that for openMSX, you could select 'open File with...' and then save that setting in Windows. (As far as I know, I don't use Windows much.)

And to show this is indeed possible, I recorded about six ways to open a (legally downloaded) MSX game ROM on openMSX using C-BIOS (which comes by default with the emulator, so no system ROMs would need to be downloaded manually).

(The OSD menu probably looks slightly different though, as I was running the latest development build (dev builds of openMSX for Windows here), which has some modifications to the OSD menu compared to 16.0 But the other methods should work the same.)

(And if you want to use other system roms, so you can for example select a machine that actually has a disk interface, here's a video that explains how to install, configure and add system roms you've obtained, and even set a different machine as default machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MvhuTiLJqc (not my video though))

By msx4ever,com

Resident (47)

msx4ever,com's picture

27-10-2020, 11:37

Lex Lechz wrote:

Quote:

For common users (in my opinion) even Catapult (coded in Python instead of C/C++) can be extended to be more convenient.

Manuel wrote:

Quote:

The usual Catapult that is shipped in the Windows installer is coded in C++ and it's a very old program that only gets some maintenance. It's not actively being worked on.

We have worked a while on a Python based Catapult, but, except from some updates I did last year, it is also not very active. Also because it's hard to compile for Windows in a way that it is easier to use and install. Still, that program is a lot better than the original Catapult, IMHO.

openMSX isn't convenient and hardly usable for the common computer user. RuMSX and blueMSX are much more user-friendly. For developers and techies, openMSX may be a better emulator of MSX features, but the MSX computer was simple and easy to use. Floppy in it, on and play. An MSX emulator for the ordinary computer user should aim to achieve this.
The more it feels like MSX, the better emulator it is.
That makes sense.

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