About sad decisions and reactions

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By mars2000you

Enlighted (5513)

mars2000you's picture

02-01-2004, 23:53

Because of hard reactions about their projects, the authors of the Super Puzzle Fighter 2X adaptation for MSX1 have decided to put off line the progress of their work and some screenshots. What's a pity !

I know that it's not the result of the MRC team reactions, but the result of the hard attitude of the main visitor of MRC (number one in 2003). And it has always a link with the discussion about copyrights.

I think that each programmer (or team of programmers) that decides to adapt an existing game to MSX knows perfectly these problems. It's not intelligent to always put the finger on this point without making the difference between free fans projects and commercial projects, without making the difference about MSX Revival between Japan and the rest of the world.

So, what's the solution ? A boycott of MRC for informing about some projects ???

Everyone that understands that absence of info is worse than too much info will make like me : I'll make directly a copy on my harddisk of every page about new MSX projects !!! And I'll not inform MRC if I think that some people will have bad reactions about this project !

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By pitpan

Prophet (3131)

pitpan's picture

03-01-2004, 01:48

As somebody pointer before, copyright was not a real problem until the MSX Revival came. I am not blaming MSX Revival, but perhaps it will be a good moment to separate completly the amateur scene from the professional scene. I am an amateur coder and I do all my MSXing only for fun. I do not want any money for what I do, and I wouldn't accept it. As far as I code for a machine that disappeared from the comercial market long time ago, I think that I am not hurting anybody. Legally this is unadmissible, I know, but I love MSX machines and I want to play the games I like in it, that's all.
And if you want to go professional, then you need permissions and all that stuff, of course. YOU ARE EARNING MONEY.

But for me it is just a hobby like any other. For example, if I paint a copy of Monna Lisa and show it somewhere, should I pay royalties to Mr. DaVinci? When I program a remake for MSX1 all the graphics are fully redrawn and the code is built from scratch. I will program also original games, but at this moment, MSX users are more interested in games that they already know.

I will be very glad if MSX finally becomes commercial again, and I will support any interesting initiative. I will buy the official GURU LOGIC as soon as it is published, and if a new MSX computer comes along I will buy it if I can.

But please keep the "copyright fever" out from the amateur scene. Think about it: if you have bought the official MSX Magazine and you are using MSX Player you are violating also Microsoft copyright, because MSX BASIC is only licensed to be used with MSX PLAYER in Japan. That's why MSX Magazine isn't neither published nor sold to foreign countries. How can I support the MSX Revival if I cannot even use the "official" product without violating the law? I am amateur and I will continue amateur in the MSX Scene.

Everyone has to choose and after that, be congruent. But I think that overreaction is now usual here. Please get calm and respect the opinion of the other users. That's all: be polite. I think that the people has blamed GuyveR800 because of his opinion. He is free to have his own opinion, as everybody, and to say what he wants to say. He is a very active MSX user and programmer, and we all should respect that.

Everyone agrees with this? I hope so. Let's make MSX a platform for fun, not for confrontation.

Kind regards to everybody,

Eduardo Robsy

By Grauw

Ascended (8457)

Grauw's picture

03-01-2004, 03:49

Well said Robsy Smile. Although I don't agree with you on the topic of the MSX revival, I must say your reply to 'the news item in question' was one of the few which made sense ^_^. And uh, sorry I was so harsh about you. It's just a bit confusing sometimes, with all the bashing going around. To speak with the words of one of them: yuk. I hate it.

mars2000you, in case you missed it elsewhere... I seriously doubt boycotting the MRC with certain news will do the MSX community any good. If you ask me, the current increase in MSX activity I'm seeing and the international contacts are for a good part due to them, so they can't be such a bad site then (you're reading it after all, eh, and writing to the forum often). They deserver some credit for that, and ideas (or worse, actions!) like this are really not contributing. In the end someone will open a forum topic about it anyway, the MRC admins will probably make a news item out of it, and you will gain nothing.

And why even think about it? The only 'harmful' thing about MRC posting about it, is that it becomes widely known (if you don't want that, keep it a secret!) (and hope no-one breaches your confidence), and that the MRC has those news reactions and a forum in which topics can be discussed. And what is going on in there is just free speech going its way (with the admins intervening if things really get out of hand). I don't think a world which would selectively forbid talk about certain topics is a world I would like to live in.

~Grauw

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5513)

mars2000you's picture

03-01-2004, 08:45

Of course, boycotting MRC for some projects is only an idea, and as MRC has so many visitors, it's really unreal. But that was the first idea that came to my mind when I saw the bad result of the bad reactions about the project to adapt a game to MSX1.

Indeed, if I keep for me a MSX project that is exposed on a site, it will be known soon or later by the MRC team, directly or indirectly.

I'm not for a world without discussion or where the threads should be first selected, but I begin to hate these discussions about copyrights, because they are excessive.

Let's back to the great commercial MSX time (1983-1991) and let's take an example like Pac-Man. Everyone knows this commercial game .... and everyone knows the fan "clones" of this game, that were released in different magazines (the most known is "Pucky" in one of the first MCM). Nobody at this time was so excessive about copyrights. Why now such an attitude ? Because the amateur's talents can now reach the level of the professionnals ? It's ridiculous !

It's really great time to come back to the reality and as pitpan has said, to make the difference between the commercial scene and the amateur scene !

By mth

Champion (484)

mth's picture

03-01-2004, 10:05

Please note that Guyver is not Capcom's laywer, nor does he represent the MSX community. There will always be people disagreeing with you. Some will keep quiet, some will say they disagree politely and some will say so in a less than polite manner. If you think you're doing nothing wrong, then continue your project and ignore the criticism. Please consider putting your page back online.

By pitpan

Prophet (3131)

pitpan's picture

03-01-2004, 10:30

One last idea: did Konami pay any license to publish the Q*Bert game? Neither in the box nor in the instructions or the game itself I have seen any copyright notice or any agreement with the legal owners of the original name and game idea. Were they sued for this? As far as I know, the answer is NO.

Perhaps Q*Bert is the best game coded for the MSX1 system: huge gameplay, technically perfect, all packed in 32 KB. And it was sold (luckily!) in all the world. What should we think then? Even the emblematic MSX company Konami did not code everytime original games and they did not respect other companies' copyrights. Did they have any problems about this? No. Were the MSX users upset/disappointed? No. Even now I love to play that game, a guide of what MSX coding should be.

I know that this is a single case, and nowadays most MSX groups prefer to port games rather than creating their own. I agree with GuyveR800 that this is a pitty, but I try to understand it: MSX games are coded by small teams and it takes a huge amount of time to complete any game, even the most simple. If you add design time and playability tests, then this is the never-ending history. That's why MSX groups prefer to take non-original ideas with high playability, because you know that the idea is good before coding. If not, if you develop a new game and then it fails the playability goal, you have spent all your time useless. In my opinion, or, more exactly, in my case, this is what it happens.

About MRC, I think that it is the referal to all MSX users worldwide. You could agree or not with its opinions or points of view, you can love it or hate it, but it is the only international MEETING POINT for MSX users, and the most comprehensive MSX news source. They are doing a good job and I should say: CONGRATULATIONS MRC CREW. I know that we have some differences, but, hey, they work really hard for the MSX, even if what they do is sometimes missunderstood by other MSX users. And every MSX user should recognize that!

I am glad to receive such feedback for our current MSX1 project, and that will help Jon and me to continue with it, but let's keep calm. Perhaps, and it is only an idea, it would be good to create a new type of news, with other Pengo graphic, called "UNDERGROUND SCENE" or something like that. With that, MRC would be able to publish those news without getting implied, without necessarily sharing the same point of view. I am totally underground, I know it, and I will continue like that in the future.

This is all what I have to say.

Kind regards to every MSX user,

Eduardo Robsy

By BiFi

Enlighted (4348)

BiFi's picture

03-01-2004, 10:50

Konami is well-known for adding things to the standard gameplay. Back then you wouldn't have thought of rotating the blocks Wrappy stands on in the direction he jumps. That's what made the game more original than the original. IMHO it's better to add gameplay to it that just copy it without adding anything and that's what Konami did with Q*Bert.

By Argon

Paragon (1085)

Argon's picture

03-01-2004, 11:08

The way I see it, QBert is a TYPE of action/puzzle game.
Konami just made a game based on that type of puzzle, with their own graphics, music and content.
They did not just copy the game.

K.

By pitpan

Prophet (3131)

pitpan's picture

03-01-2004, 14:44

And the copyright guru? What does he think?

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

03-01-2004, 17:28

Who me?
I fully agree with BiFi and Argon. This is exactly the point I'm always trying to make.

Unfortunately, most people do not seem to really read and think about things I say and... Crying

By Grauw

Ascended (8457)

Grauw's picture

03-01-2004, 17:37

I don't know about Q-Bert, but I sincerely doubt Konami pulblished something without the proper legality, being the suckers about copyrights they are Smile.

As for the rest, I respect your opinion although I don't agree with it. And maybe some kind of 'underground' part is a good idea to solve msx.org's current worries about certain topics, it might be a good idea. Anyways the whole problem with the issue was that it turned from some comments on legality or illegality (which people can have different opinions about) to a flamewar, and worse, directed to a single person.

Alas, back to the topic, the reasoning El Viejo uses is not sound, I know amongst others because I have had a lot of classes about legal rights in the software business, and also take a personal interest in such things. But, it can be a good way to look at it, and justify it for yourself even though it's not allowed 'strictly spoken'. Ofcourse there are some softening circumstances like that the quality is much lower than the original, that it is for a very old computer system, that it is a fan game no-one earns money with, etc. However, on the other hand, by the letter of the law, it still *is* illegal practices. And theoretically, you could even get sued over it. Combine that with a personal opinion which says I'd rather see original work, and there is an argument. Ofcourse it is nice that new MSX games are being made, and I truly like all this activity, but... Well, anyways. But hey, cheer up, don't get mad (next to praise, you can take some critisism too, right!), and just merrily go on with your game Smile. No-one is stopping you. And er... next time, when you want to make another game... Maybe you could consider making an original one? I mean, that would be even cooler Smile.

Cheers,

~Grauw

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