The Cartridge-Only philosophising

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By AxelStone

Prophet (2689)

AxelStone's picture

15-12-2015, 11:17

NYYRIKKI wrote:

Over all I enjoy your work very much and I find your games very innovative compared to most of other MSX2 titles mainly because you have the skill to use the graphics in artistic ways and create real game play ideas while most of us are just stuck to stupid technical details... That said I would be happy if you could accept me to your "Physical copy"-list.

I agree with this. I think that MSX coders waste most of the time looking for impossible routines that never ends in a product. This is, we search the perfect routine and then we try to fit into a game. Kai has another way of doing things: first look for the game and after this he makes the proper engine. If you are going to make games, this is the correct way to do it.

Take note all of us!

By assembler

Champion (378)

assembler's picture

15-12-2015, 11:20

As I don't have Moonsound (yet), this is a good way to enjoy the game.

Kai Life on Mars! digi-buy pledges list:
01 hap
02 mars2000you
03 guiseve
04 mtn
05 turbor
06 sd_snatcher
07 wouter_
08 assembler

By iamweasel2

Hero (524)

iamweasel2's picture

15-12-2015, 12:21

Count me in for a digital copy of Life on Mars.

By Grauw

Ascended (8442)

Grauw's picture

15-12-2015, 13:34

@ericb59 Interesting data!

I was thinking more on the "real msx user" topic. When I make my software, I make it for anyone who wants to try it. The more the merrier, right? For VGMPlay I even considered to post a topic about it on SMSPower (but unfortunately new user accounts can’t post links). A few people from the VGM community also tried it.

Instead of focusing on a very specific core group of MSX users, I rather think the retro community as a whole could do well with branching out and having a bit more interaction and cross-pollination between the different platforms. Currently we’re operating too much in separate silos. That’s also what I find interesting about Trilobyte, they’re a multiplatform group between MSX and SMS.

By ren

Paragon (1223)

ren's picture

15-12-2015, 16:15

Talking for myself: I moved from MSX2 to PC/DOS to PC/Windows. Then the emu's came, and it was a wondrous world, all that power/possibilities just under the fingertips of the PC's keyboard! Smile This way I also got back into MSX again.
I never went back to using real MSX though, also because I don't (seem to) care enough perhaps in that regard. But I can't deny it itches at times to go back to it, also because I'm getting a bit tired of 'tinkering' with emu settings to get the best result as possible +, of course, it 'just' isn't the real thing. Stuff like input lag is a real issue (something that really opened my eyes to this, was experiencing the difference between Shmupmame and regular MAME). Though I believe some people are trying to eliminate this completely (allegedly Libretro is ahead of the curve in this?) but, of course, emulation will always remain/be an approximation.

I can relate to things other peeps have said here. I surely can relate to @mfeingol's story: casually playing MSX games, the reasoning (for 40 eurobucks I expect something to be a really good game though) + the (possible) use a demo can have.

I also can relate to what @turbor said: the space required to have a MSX set up vs. the convenience of an emulator. I do look with interest at FPGA solutions / the Zemmix Neo. (But I do think that if you're *really* a fan, you just will find a way to have your MSX set up Wink)

I can also relate to what @gdx is saying: release cart first, and after some months go digital as well.
I also can understand, and is a nice + / bonus for buyers/supporters, to have added features in the paid release (be it digital or physical), as has happened with some MSXdev games.

Furthermore I must concur it's a rather blatant request OP is making. You can't have everything in life, and not always things will be to your liking, and you can make either a fuss about it or not (or try to change the/your situation so you can have what you want). (Of course, then there are always possibilities to try to get your 'goods' in an unofficial way.. (like such))

And furthermore it seems to me a lot of the games he lists are already freely available, and in full actually?
So also a case of bad research it seems..

I agree, people should realize it is the people that create/share/publish that keep a system like MSX alive.
Just trying to leech.. You indeed are literally sucking the blood/life-force out of it (and then devs might start saying 'fu'/enough..)

(And to be real about things: I certainly am not a saint (anyone here who is?) but I do get the point..)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuuObGsB0No

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5382)

NYYRIKKI's picture

15-12-2015, 14:55

AxelStone wrote:
NYYRIKKI wrote:

Over all I enjoy your work very much and I find your games very innovative compared to most of other MSX2 titles mainly because you have the skill to use the graphics in artistic ways and create real game play ideas while most of us are just stuck to stupid technical details... That said I would be happy if you could accept me to your "Physical copy"-list.

I agree with this. I think that MSX coders waste most of the time looking for impossible routines that never ends in a product. This is, we search the perfect routine and then we try to fit into a game.

I can not count my self out in any way. If I would make a game, it would need to be technically perfect , because it is important to me-> I would not ever come up with complete game -> End of story.

Practically games are hard... Users can do things that you don't like yet you still have to handle it. Even if you manage to get it technically "right", you are not even half way there. People like to play games that have things like a good story or addictive repeat pattern without always coming back to starting point. Best games are really quick to play a round, they keep you busy and still let you to advance in small steps without making you frustrated. To create something like that requires a whole different set of skills compared to optimizing Z80 instructions in a perfect manner. Even if a coder can come up with playable game he probably ends up testing it until he does not want to see the game ever again. If he can pass this stage he has no idea if the game is easy or hard or how it should be adjusted. When you have tested something for 100 hours, you have no idea how a player sees your work... I've noticed that this is pretty much same with composing music. You do something and hear every little detail. Next morning you wake up and realize that the combination of things is just a total mess that you don't understand even your self. Making of games is a form of art and computers are the tools to make it happen. The fact that I or you know everything about MSX does not automatically make us good artists. This is why we need people like Kai Magazine that is not so perfect with technical skills, but knows exactly what needs to be done and knows enough to get to the goal. Technology freaks are rarely good artists and other way around. I think we just need to accept it. I think it would be great to have more people like Kai Magazine in MSX scene.

By iamweasel2

Hero (524)

iamweasel2's picture

15-12-2015, 15:22

Kai,

When we think about it, it makes sense that the number of digital copies sold is small, as someone pointed out, a cartridge with a box is more than just the software. It's a collectible product, you can touch, it can make your shelf prettier and if later you decide to sell, it keeps (and sometimes even increase) his value. A digital product has only the software, as someone said, it has no sex in it. Wink

I must say that I'm not satisfied being a digital products consumer, i was (am?) a collector, so I like to have cartridges. I just can't afford to have them anymore, at least not as much cartridges as I had in the past. It was not easy to let go my collection of books, DVDs, CDs, videogames and computers, but as I said before, things are what they are, there's no point of keeping crying about it.

As I said in the last message here, count me in for a digital copy of your new game. And I really hope that you will reconsider your decision about Monkey Island. If you do develop it, I'll buy it in whatever media you decide to release it, physical copy or digital. As a matter of fact, since Monkey Islad is such a iconic game, I'll prefer a cartridge version. Smile

Kai Magazine wrote:

Hello iamweasel2, the situation in Spain is very similar regarding the apartaments, and the economy here is very bad right now (for the last 5 years and counting), and houses are incredibily expensive, and only wealthy people can afford them.
I understand that need and that point of view perfectly, and many here said just the same thing before.
What troubles me in particular, is the facts.
The facts show there are many of the here mentioned games for sale on digital format, and only very few people here as ever purchased a digital game, as shown in this social experiment, and in past releases we made, and for what I have been talking with other developers.
While your need for space is real and I belive it, the facts show that most people who demand digital releases to purchase here, never did and never will. Those are the cold undeniable facts, because we are seeing it right now.

By the way, regarding the "coding something", I PROMISE all coding and music on "Life on mars" as well as all our other games, were made by us with real msx, and no emulators were involved at any point (a a matter of fact, the game has an incompatibility issue due to the moonsound emulation, with ALL emulators at the moment, which I will only fix if the experiment reaches 20 people).
I am uncapable of coding on an emulator. It is much better, faster and reliable to code using tools like megaflashrom sd scc+ and eric boez SD card reader, which both have their advantadges and disadvantadges, and I used both to develope and code Life on Mars.

Anyway all this will be cleared soon enough. Let's see if the list reaches even 10 digital buyers...

By giuseve

Paladin (733)

giuseve's picture

15-12-2015, 17:08

Hi to all.
I'm back again.

As I already said, my "please send me" list was a provocation. And I must say It worked.
13 pages of posts in a couple of day, not bad at all!!

Let me say a couple of thing.
In the 80s I was an happy owner of a YC-64 and a NMS-8255 some years after. It was an epic period for my beloved MSX and I buyed tons of tapes and Floppy. I remember MSX2 was not so supported here in Italy, but with a teacher of mine who loved MSX too we used to buy DiscStations and many other things directly from Japan. My favourite game was Laser Squad. I Bought a nice BOX with the italian version and I played it hundreds of time. I started to love Strategy games in that period.
Now, after so many years, with all my MSX stuff wasted somewhere forever, I don't feel myself guilty to download TOSEC archives with Laser Squad and many other titles, because in the 80s I was an MSX users (a real MSX user, as some orthodox and extremist people here like to say).

Please, be honest: which of you nowaday uses to play only
- dumped roms
- of real cartridges you still have now
- and nothing else, neither .rom of games you owned years ago ?

I prepared the "SEND ME LIST" simply copying many titles here and there to force everybody to understand the reasons of people like Mars2000
It can't be acceptable that someone nowaday consider peolple who use emulators in 2015 a non msx-user when in the 80s we were it, maybe years before some of you all !!!

Now, after so many provocations by me, it would be nice to provide a msx.org section where authors can promote DV version of their software
Let's change the list to the "DV AVAILABLE GAME LIST"
Let's try (please, change and modify it as you want if I made any mistake)

- Lilo @ €.9,00
- Nuts @ €.9,00
- No Name @ €.9,00
- Breakfree
- Profanation MSX2
- Atomix
- Carmen Sandiego
- Blinky Scary School
- MineSX
- Transyvalnia III
- Sd-Snatcher English re-translation patch
- Princess Quest (the Colecovision version)
- Uridium (full version) (maybe it will come in free version)
- Caos Begins
- Life on MARS @ €.15,00
- Illusion city Intro remake

@ kai, sorry, but I don't like games like Lilo or Nuts. But I will buy Life on Mars ASAP. May I pay you with Paypal?

By Grauw

Ascended (8442)

Grauw's picture

15-12-2015, 17:28

giuseve wrote:

As I already said, my "please send me" list was a provocation. And I must say It worked.

It worked indeed!

giuseve wrote:

Now, after so many years, with all my MSX stuff wasted somewhere forever, I don't feel myself guilty to download TOSEC archives with Laser Squad and many other titles, because in the 80s I was an MSX users.

Yes, but you must make a distinction between titles from the 80s which have long been abandoned by their developers, and recent community releases which are supporting active MSX developments.

By oskar666

Champion (357)

oskar666's picture

15-12-2015, 18:55

assembler wrote:

As I don't have Moonsound (yet), this is a good way to enjoy the game.

Kai Life on Mars! digi-buy pledges list:
01 hap
02 mars2000you
03 guiseve
04 mtn
05 turbor
06 sd_snatcher
07 wouter_
08 assembler

I also want a digital copy ( .rom ) , Smile so I add to the list.

Kai Life on Mars! digi-buy pledges list:
01 hap
02 mars2000you
03 guiseve
04 mtn
05 turbor
06 sd_snatcher
07 wouter_
08 assembler
09 Oskar666

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