The Cartridge-Only philosophising

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By tvalenca

Paladin (728)

tvalenca's picture

14-12-2015, 16:14

First of all, I have to say that I still didn't payed for most software I "have been shared" since early 90's (when I finally had a MSX at home and got my first Konami game) so I'm not better than anyone here in this matter, but I refuse to consider that I'm worse than anyone here, by my own principles. WHEN I have some spare cash, I buy something.

As a "Brazil-living" brazilian, I absolutely have to agree with @sd_snatcher and @iamweasel2. Even if the small apartment is a personal reason for them but not always a reason for the rest of us (brazilian MSX lovers/users), the other reasons they pointed are far more serious... so sometimes it's just not an option to buy the phisical copy, even if it comes with an actual gold bar. But ok, maybe we're not supposed to have this. (well, maybe we're not even being considered, as the guy who started this thread is from Europe)

But IMHO there's a bigger problem than that: We brazilians have a say, a popular say, that translates to "the occasion forges the thief". So, If I can't have a game because it only exists on cartridge, I will borrow someone's cartridge and dump it. If I don't know how to do, I will learn. If the dumped game and still can't play because it has a copy protection, I'll find a way to break it. And if I didn't liked the game, I'll start over with another one. So, I went thru this and became a hacker, because I could not have something that I may (or may not) have buyed. That's nasty! Cool, but nasty.

So, EVEN IF I AGREE WITH FELLOW DEVELOPERS (I myself am a developer for living, but I work for a bank and we don't sell our software) that if you're asking money for your job you HAVE TO be payed for it, because "the first can opener was made to open the first chastity belt". We have learned for a while that such approach only will get hackers motivated to hack one more thing. Just look at the PS3 (and the PS4) custom Firmwares, the iPhone jailbreak, the "rooting" hacks on Android Phones... and we all know about the war the companies fight (at least Sony's and Apple's) with those hackers. We all know that don't pay anything, so copy protections for just copy protection are never effective; you need to offer something more. That's how things are, so deal with it.

If I had to do something about, I'd make something like Konami did back in the day (the hi-score checksum on Gradius 2 game over screen for that contest), or some shareware/adware tatic, If he wants to play the full game he will, but not without being bullied all the time at random intervals, (by a nasty nag screen, an impossible-to-get-rid-of enemy... you name it), maybe a combination of those two, and maybe with anything else. It has to be easier and cheaper than hacking to work, and more importantly, will offer something that only genunine buyers could enjoy. If we had something like the Spectranet, we could have some web authentication tool, or even download on demand, but we don't.

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

14-12-2015, 16:03

Understood, Meits. Thank you for the support. Wink

As a developer I think developers and publishers are actually alone with these "giuseve-marsish behaviours". I think developers and publishers need the support from the entire MSX community.

I'm sure people (good MSX people) don't like non-msx users and don't want any piracy at all. But, sadly, when a giuseve "arises" most of the MSX users keep silent.

Normally, the most active forum users are non-msx users so the "brave" developer-publisher-whatever who defends his product usually it ends up losing the battle. And usually the developer leaves the MSX forever. Who wins? non-MSX-all-free-gimme-gimme-your-games user.

And the community loses, the MSX loses.

Tell me...

a) Do you prefer an adult MSX Community with new hard-soft-whatever developments, with a little commercial market, etc..

b) do you prefer a non-MSX-only-emulator-free community?

I'm sure you prefer a). But to achieve it not only we need new developers-publishers. We need, too, an adult community.

An adult community would respect MSX authors. Hey! I don't say you need to buy ALL new products. That would be an epic fail. You should support only the new developments you like, of course... but I think all of us should support the new developers-developments-whatever against destroythesystem-piracy behaviours.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

14-12-2015, 16:19

Quote:

"-> Who is a MSX user ?
The individual who knows about MSX,"

Nope.

I know a lot about the Fairlight CMI synthesizer (even had disassembled and studied the firmware and OS) but I don't actually have a CMI so I'm NOT a CMI user.

By Eugeny_Brychkov

Paragon (1094)

Eugeny_Brychkov's picture

14-12-2015, 16:33

warau wrote:

I know a lot about the Fairlight CMI synthesizer (even had disassembled and studied the firmware and OS) but I don't actually have a CMI so I'm NOT a CMI user.

Good catch. Who are you in relation to "Fairlight CMI synthesizer" then?
You are a master. Still disagree?
And those "Fairlight CMI synthesizer" users will come to you for advice.

And please do not take what I said partially and from the context. I said that MSX user should KNOW about MSX as a first prerequisite. You can not be user of something you do not know, but you may consider yourself being not-a-user for something you know - exactly your case with "Fairlight CMI synthesizer" Nishi

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

14-12-2015, 16:33

tvalenca wrote:

But IMHO there's a bigger problem than that: We brazilians have a say, a popular say, that translates to "the occasion forges the thief". So, If I can't have a game because it only exists on cartridge, I will borrow someone's cartridge and dump it. If I don't know how to do, I will learn. If the dumped game and still can't play because it has a copy protection, I'll find a way to break it. And if I didn't liked the game, I'll start over with another one. So, I went thru this and became a hacker, because I could not have something that I may (or may not) have buyed. That's nasty! Cool, but nasty.

What a poor justification.

If I CAN'T have a car because I don't have the money or a garage to keep it safely, I just renounce to it.

Because of the same reason I don't have a yatch, I don't travel to Japan four times a year and I don't have caviar for lunch.

Remember that life, freedom, equality and education are rights that anyone have. But MSX games are just for leisure.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

14-12-2015, 17:16

Ramones, I will not answer to all your comments, but what you are explaining is very interesting.

Just one reaction to illustrate that it's not true that I want to play games for free without paying a reasonable price.

Here my list of all the games in digital format I've bought :

- Bombaman (I include it in the digital releases because the Sunrise package included the real disks and a CD with the DSK files and other extras)
- Lilo
- Nuts
- No Name
- Breakfree
- Profanation MSX2
- Atomix
- Carmen Sandiego
- Blinky Scary School
- MineSX
- Transyvalnia III
- Sd-Snatcher English re-translation patch
- Princess Quest (the Colecovision version)

So, keep that in mind when you are speaking about what you call as non-msx users ...

P.S. I've just seen that Boxboy is now available in digital form in Slotman's shop and I will order it ! Smile

P.S2 I have now Boxboy. Online ordering, payment by PayPal and directly a link is available for downloading. It's so simple and Slotman will be happy.

By tvalenca

Paladin (728)

tvalenca's picture

14-12-2015, 16:51

warau wrote:

What a poor justification.

If I CAN'T have a car because I don't have the money or a garage to keep it safely, I just renounce to it.

Because of the same reason I don't have a yatch, I don't travel to Japan four times a year and I don't have caviar for lunch.

Remember that life, freedom, equality and education are rights that anyone have. But MSX games are just for leisure.

I wasn't justificating, I just explained one possible turnaround about this scenario and, in my experience, happened a lot back then. We brazilians also had that market reserve policy that restricted foreign technology so many bussinessmans just pirated almost everything instead of creating new things and hide behind that policy, so I think we know a bit more about this and to where this is going to lead us. And, as you have read, I already apologised myself for that.

I also not saying this is legal or moral, only that this happens. A LOT. And it's sad, but people think that because MSX isn't commercial for 20+ years they can do it. No, they're sure they can do it.

And finally, I said that I'd take the problem from another approach.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1303)

Kai Magazine's picture

14-12-2015, 17:44

All this opinions are ok, but talk is free and this discussion will not get anywhere.

Let's see some facts and return to the matter of this thread (giuseve's list):

giuseve wrote:

@kai
Hi guys
I deleted from the list games available in DV.
ASAP i will delete also Your game considering you are going to sell it in a DV.
ASAP i will delete also Uridium because they are going to give it free, if iunderstood correctly.

And the answer is ... yes, i will buy it because i think that 15euros is a very good price.
Count me on the list
03 giuseve
.. can you do it also considering that i am a non-msx user? :-) I repeat, it is a so stupid idea, we are 4 cats and someone wants to be only 2 cats because others are non-msx-users

Giuseve, you deleted Lilo and Nuts, but did not delete No name or Life on mars.
That shows you did not delete those names because you were made aware of their digital purchase availability, but because someone already sent them to you.

Also you still have not contacted me to make the digital purchases of those 3 games, which are very cheap (9 euro each) so your credibility is rapidly reaching zero.

The first ASAP (as soon as possible) you had was when you were first pointed out those games existed on digital format sale.
The second ASAP you had is when you wrote your last post (the one I quoted) showing that you had the time to read the posts and to respond, but you did not took any action to correct this situation.

Unless you meant you will remove the names as soon as someone sends the dump to you...

Regarding your comment ".. can you do it also considering that i am a non-msx user? :-) I repeat, it is a so stupid idea, we are 4 cats and someone wants to be only 2 cats because others are non-msx-users"
I did not give my opinion about who is or who is not an msx user. I hope that comment is not targeted to me.
By the way, my humble opinion of an MSX user is, those who SUPPORT the msx in any way, either by developing, purchasing or helping in any way, and creating awareness while not causing harm to the comunity (with unnecessary piracy, for example, such in this case).
That is just my opinion. We do not need to debate it or discuss it. My opinion in this matter will not change.

In another subject, and stating more facts:
I corroborate that mars2000 did indeed purchase the digital kai magazine games. He also supported us in the Life on Mars thread, so I personally consider him an msx user.
Anyway I do not know anything about what happened in the past with some cracked games, I just picked some notions from what has been pointed out here, but it is not enough information to create a valid opinion.

Regarding the list of Life on Mars digital buyers:
3 potential buyers, 2 of them legit. I doubt the list will grow much more...
Those are the facts, mixed with some of my opinions, but please disregard my opinions, those are irrelevant to the facts.

By ericb59

Paladin (860)

ericb59's picture

14-12-2015, 17:59

Ramones wrote:

a) Do you prefer an adult MSX Community with new hard-soft-whatever developments, with a little commercial market, etc..

I think a little commercial market is good for the MSX community. It's necessary !
Without it, there will be no more development (Hardware or software).
I don't say people makes games or hardware for the money... I said the money is the reward that proove they do something interesting, or usefull. It's a recognition.
To be honest, no one, (developers, manufacturers, publishers) will earn a salary on a so small market like the MSX scene.
And most of money earned is reinvested in other developments.
This is for fun, and for recognition from other msx lovers.

So... I have to say... I love you all, even if you don't use real MSX machines... even if you don't buy MSX softwares, because if you are here on this forum, it's because one day (and still now) you love MSX ! Big smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1303)

Kai Magazine's picture

14-12-2015, 17:58

NYYRIKKI wrote:
Kai Magazine wrote:

What do you say? this should be interesting. I am really intrigued to see if there are as many real digital buyers as they say.

I understand very well why you are not very keen to sell digital versions... I also know that you are not a big fan of my ideas, but may I suggest that you put a name + some sort of checksum or a secret ID number inside the digital versions. It is not a copy protection, but in the unlucky case the digital version gets leaked by some reason, you at least get to know who did the wrong thing. I have high hopes this does not happen, but for digital version this is very easy to implement and causes no trouble to users either.

NYYRIKKI, I never said anything wrong about your ideas, your ideas are usually quite good, and you are an exelent developer, and an even greater MSX supporter, even offering your help to many wihthout expecting anything in return.
Your ideas are always welcome.
The issue I had with the personal messages you sent to me were (as I explained to you in my last message) regarding your social skills (at least with me), not your ideas.
I know you are a good person and you meant no harm, and you are a pillar of the msx developement world.
Do not mistake my problem with the tone of your messages with lack of respect towards you or your work, which I respect and admire very VERY much.
I can only dream of all the things I could do on msx with your technical knowledge...

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