why a so stupid mistake?

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By PingPong

Prophet (3339)

PingPong's picture

05-10-2017, 09:25

maybe you are right about your analysis-
however facts are facts. they used a already obsolete (6-7 year old) chip without take into consideration the idea of a weakly point-
i do not agree about the MOS techlogogy ownership. msx had the potential of very high tech semiconductor company as mentioned above. look at yamaha: later (unfortunately) managed to produce a lot of msx electronic parts.

if they had committed yamaha to develop a come kind of VDP ( aka msx-video without TMS part ) i think msx could have got a better video chip as proved with the clean design of v9990 that is possibile because it drops the TMS limited/obsolete/shitty design.

By hit9918

Prophet (2858)

hit9918's picture

05-10-2017, 13:06

"whose fault is it".
another important thing. SOFTWARE and TIME FRAME.

the C64 was trick coded like hell, the MSX was not trick coded.
so this is the answer.
except the picture changes when one thinks of time frame.
a famous trick is C64 katakis with color RAM scroll in 1988
that time I have amiga and 8bit is passee.

like, trick coding starts on C64 after MSX2 is out!
then one cant blame when 9918 didnt get enough trick attention.
FRAGMENTATION.
MSX1, MSX2, and there is a THIRD MSX. The MSX1- with 16k RAM Tongue

KONAMI targeted MSX1 16k RAM. but especialy with scroll stuff you want 64k RAM.
that a 16k is weak vs C64 totaly cannot be blamed on the VDP

so, software vs time frame vs platform fragmentation

and then what is it with CIRCUS CHARLIE
pixel scroll in 1984 yeah!
and now that I think of it, its fast scroll when you are swinging, fast scroll with colorRAM, a C64 coder would cry still in 1988!

but konami didnt get doublebuffering in circus charlie.
is that the day the scroll died, the reason why nemesis could have no pixel scroll?
but another reason is the 16k MSX.

By PingPong

Prophet (3339)

PingPong's picture

05-10-2017, 14:39

hit9918 wrote:

"whose fault is it".
another important thing. SOFTWARE and TIME FRAME.

the C64 was trick coded like hell, the MSX was not trick coded.
so this is the answer.

yes, but it is because on c64 design you can DO tricks! TMS not. Even the illegal modes trick are unusable because of sprite ghosting. So no trick 'literature' flying around.
on C64 they tricket at point to have 9 sprites / scanline in a stable way.
can you show 5 shitty tms sprites on scanline without flickering? No. The reason ? The VIC-II design. There is no one on the earth that can do this.

Quote:

like, trick coding starts on C64 after MSX2 is out!

quality does not depend on tricks and in the early stages most depend of what you can get out of the box without tricks.
Graphically wise VIC-II can do FAR BETTER that TMS even in basic and programmed with POKE.
It's a fact.

Adding the trick issue will enhance the distance between TMS & VIC-II making VIC-II even more FAR and better. ;-)

Quote:

then one cant blame when 9918 didnt get enough trick attention.
FRAGMENTATION.
MSX1, MSX2, and there is a THIRD MSX. The MSX1- with 16k RAM Tongue

And in what manner TMS could get attention? It was limited, un-trickable shitty obsolete chip. Obviously no attention at all!

Quote:

KONAMI targeted MSX1 16k RAM. but especialy with scroll stuff you want 64k RAM.
that a 16k is weak vs C64 totaly cannot be blamed on the VDP

scroll require a decent support hw not memory ! on c64 and expectially on (msx2 partially / msx2+) you can do scroll with few lines of basic code
It does require memory on TMS DUE to the LACK OF HW SUPPORT. So redefined patterns. So a lot o memory wasted. Not to count with colour clash issues.

Quote:

and then what is it with CIRCUS CHARLIE
pixel scroll in 1984 yeah!
and now that I think of it, its fast scroll when you are swinging, fast scroll with colorRAM, a C64 coder would cry still in 1988!

- wastening the precious resource of sprites to patch the complete hw lack of scrolling facilities.
- Causing a lot of VRAM transfers needed to write so frequently nametable
- Using a lot of the z80 CPU time to transfer data.

- In a lot of other games, like nemesis the trick could simply not work. too much sprites for the stupid limit of 4/scanline for the shitty VDP
Yeah

By hit9918

Prophet (2858)

hit9918's picture

05-10-2017, 16:22

well what is the topic.
when the fairy brings the dream VDP, then there is not much to discuss.
there are a dozen possible topics.
for example: after 1986 MSX2 it is pointless to cry about the 9918.

By yzi

Champion (441)

yzi's picture

05-10-2017, 16:32

Why would anyone think it was a "mistake" to select the already existing and known TMS 9918 instead of waiting an unknown period of time for a new chip, when the goal is to get lots of manufacturers to produce very different but compatible products on the new emerging home computer market? In Japan in the beginning of the 1980s, when this effort is being led by a person who is far from being a chip designer? I think the 9918 decision fits the goals and valuations very well.

Saying that the goals themselves were wrong is another thing. But then, there are other computers that were designed in a different environment and culture, with different values and goals. You can buy those on Ebay any day. For example the Commodore 64, which was introduced already in 1982. Its graphics and sound capabilities and programming flexibility are far better. But if you want lots of different Machines with Software eXchangeability, from dozens of different manufacturers, in 1983, then you get MSX.

By hit9918

Prophet (2858)

hit9918's picture

05-10-2017, 16:34

another topic would be to list things that could have been done
and order the list by how much cost it is

By hit9918

Prophet (2858)

hit9918's picture

05-10-2017, 16:36

for example.
when even amateurs managed to make a 7Mhz cpu!
that is the lowest hanging fruit.

By hit9918

Prophet (2858)

hit9918's picture

05-10-2017, 17:27

another example Smile
7mhz cpu in 1983 MSX1
and MSX2 in 1986 without missing the 9958 scroll register

these two lowest hanging fruit give
the whole platform, cpu and slots twice as fast!
software sprites on MSX2

By tvalenca

Paladin (728)

tvalenca's picture

05-10-2017, 17:57

yzi wrote:

Why would anyone think it was a "mistake" to select the already existing and known TMS 9918 instead of waiting an unknown period of time for a new chip,

Which Yamaha chip was released on schedule? If I have to guess, none of them. At least the ones Yamaha made for ASCII corp.

hit9918 wrote:

for example.
when even amateurs managed to make a 7Mhz cpu!
that is the lowest hanging fruit.

not that simple if you consider what we're talking here.

By PingPong

Prophet (3339)

PingPong's picture

05-10-2017, 18:05

hit9918 wrote:

well what is the topic.
when the fairy brings the dream VDP, then there is not much to discuss.
there are a dozen possible topics.
for example: after 1986 MSX2 it is pointless to cry about the 9918.

No unfortunately no. Here goes the FRAGMENTATION issue...
sw makers continued to target to msx1 so tms .
A big first mistake it's hard to correct unfortunately and even v9938 had some issue on tms roots never solved even on v9958.
OK, v9938 had scroll facility but only vertically.
OK, v9958 had scroll facility in both directions, but hw sprites were the same crappyness of tms one, the only benefit was 8 instead of 4 / scanline. Plus they are even WORSE than TMS ones because of the color attribute table linked to plane nr. (and the reason of this choice is clear: compatibility with TMS vdp, the orgin of the evil )
Look at the memory bandwidth employeed by v9938 sprite renderer, then look to vic-ii (more ancient never upgraded).
to display 8 sprites on a scanline v9938 need 32 bytes read to select the sprite to show, (2+4)*8 additional cycles => 48 to display for a total of 48+32=80 reads; VIC-II need to read 8*3 = 24 cycles and have got more flexibility.
A question: with a clever design how much sprites could the v9938 be able to manage on a scanline ? 8*(80/24) -> 26!!!! for example ?
That's the point. good design matter, a lot.

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