why a so stupid mistake?

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By hit9918

Prophet (2853)

hit9918's picture

06-10-2017, 09:52

I am not saying that you are wrong in saying that that thing would have needed set adjust
I am saying that the C64 is overrated

look this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFWJkR1p200

the C64 desperately tries to find a screen mode for knightmare
the demo master flips thru its many modi
trying to get color
and thing turns fatpixel uuugh
and I am grinning HEHEHEHEHE

you see, when ONE TIME it happens that C64 ZX want to port an MSX game, they bite on GRANIT
while in 99.9% of cases the porting goes the other direction and the MSXer cries
and that is why C64 is overrated
and it will never have the sprite gameplay

By hamlet

Scribe (2321)

hamlet's picture

06-10-2017, 11:22

If you saw the smooth scrolling of Nemesis in the C64 version, you wouldn´t see things that way. One of the best R-Type versions is the Speccy one. Because of the work the programmer did. Remember Green Beret? Surely you will not remember the MSX one. A Konami game with a great C64 conversion. The C64 is a outstanding gaming machine released two years before the MSX. I did had a 64 before I bought an MSX in 1985 and I did´nt bought the MSX because of its splendid hardware. But it is too late to start another war ´bout the best computer. Microsoft won. Until Apple resurrected. I see that C64 and MSX (and Amstrad, Specci and so on) have much in common, thanks to a industrious community. I did´nt expect to see so much brilliant new software in 2017 and also such a lot great hardware for our old systems. No need to overrrate one or another system. But as it seems, we don´t get tired to discuss the differences between us.

By PingPong

Prophet (3302)

PingPong's picture

06-10-2017, 11:22

hit9918 wrote:

I am not saying that you are wrong in saying that that thing would have needed set adjust
the C64 desperately tries to find a screen mode for knightmare
the demo master flips thru its many modi
trying to get color
and thing turns fatpixel uuugh
and I am grinning HEHEHEHEHE

maybe you will grin a litlle less when you see the next video of the serie saying "sprite multiplexing" on knightmare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP1u2cRZltw (0:35)
Look at how good the VIC-II emulates the so-called-hw multiplexer of TMS9918- And here there is no flicker or partial sprites displayed here ;-) if we want we can have also multicolor without additional sprite use, lowering the pressure on sprmux

I must admit that i'm surprised in what the thing works well even if it is clear that c64 CPU is clearly 'suffering' trying to keep up with this sort of trick.

By hit9918

Prophet (2853)

hit9918's picture

06-10-2017, 12:33

The C64 knightmare runs on a simulator
the sprites are fake, it is all c++ on gigahertz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd4yIEp1dB4
infobox: "Yes, I'm cheating. But these are all the boss fights rewritten in C(++). As well as everything else"

By PingPong

Prophet (3302)

PingPong's picture

06-10-2017, 13:21

hit9918 wrote:

The C64 knightmare runs on a simulator
the sprites are fake, it is all c++ on gigahertz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd4yIEp1dB4
infobox: "Yes, I'm cheating. But these are all the boss fights rewritten in C(++). As well as everything else"

It was clear that neither the tms screen or vic-ii screen were the real thing.
But what does it mean FAKE ?
Does it mean that is *NOT* possible or real hw or simply does it mean simulated but doable on real hw ?
What it does count is if its possible or not. The simulation is only one shortcut needed to verify the idea without get the hands dirty on real hw...

By hit9918

Prophet (2853)

hit9918's picture

06-10-2017, 14:01

when I show scroll
"is only a demo"
when C64 shows sprite in some c++ gigahertz simulation
"why shouldnt it work?"
Wink

By PingPong

Prophet (3302)

PingPong's picture

06-10-2017, 15:16

hit9918 wrote:

when I show scroll
"is only a demo"
when C64 shows sprite in some c++ gigahertz simulation
"why shouldnt it work?"
Wink

This is not my personal war with you hit9918. I'm only objective.
About the demo, i cannot say if there is enough space to make the demo a real game and not a proof of concept.
About the c64 mx spr demo it is the same. I expect that the sprite sorting routine MUST WORK with the correct timing on the c64 original CPU. otherwise, is a USELESS video.
But the author claim that it does work, without inner details i cannot nor agree or disagree if possible.
The same apply to the msx demo. I've no data to tell you, "works and we have 30 T-states left to be used for game logic-> use less" or "works and we have a 80% CPU time left to do others things".

But, on c64 demo, considering the simulation timings coherent with the real hw, for me it's not a FAKE as you told me.
It will be a FAKE only if the c++ simulation performs calculations in a time shorter than real cpu. otherwise it is ok.

Anyway, i think you agree that, the presence of scroll registers in both directions allowed tms to easily keep up to the VIC-II in scrolling and the same is true for the very small improvement in sprite area.

those improvements are not constly as they appear,especially taking into account the progress in LSI chip density available 5 years after the tms was realized.

IMHO Karl guttag make its bests efforts to not enhance the TMS as proved by a document reporting an interview.
TMS was at the time an interesting chip, but buyers want a little more power. So they asked about improvements to karl guttag. Pratically every feature request resulted always in one of this answer:
- Feature (ex, more sprites on screen / scanline)
- Reply: NO, it will cost too much transistors....
- Feature (another multicolor mode)
- Reply: NO, i will need to change the logic, too much transistors...
- Feature: Neither the scroll registers, it does not cost too much.....
- Reply: NOOOOOOOOO, i need logic to mask out one row AND one col + logic to calculate apply some kind of early read (NOOOOOOO! and extra read cycle is needed, and what waste of transistors!)

I've the suspect that at TI the cost of transistors needed to create the TMS VDP was subtracted from karl salary ;-)

By Grauw

Enlighted (8084)

Grauw's picture

06-10-2017, 15:20

PingPong wrote:

I've the suspect that at TI the cost of transistors needed to create the TMS VDP was subtracted from karl salary ;-)

Big smile

By andrea.denara

Resident (59)

andrea.denara's picture

06-10-2017, 16:49

Without any doubt C64 has better VDP, but remember also, a lot of games are 160x200 or 152x200.
This is a special mode available on 64. We have a similar mode but is 64x192. In this way we can have a sort of bitmap.
I don't know any games with this structure, but should be interesting anyway.
Game like "Msx Mini Ghost" are instead difficult to realize on 64 always for a different mapping on VDP.

By smx

Rookie (29)

smx's picture

06-10-2017, 16:54

Artrag with his Uridium and with a lot of demo has show us that fine scroll is possible with great effect.

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