Why in the eighties they did not squezed hw?

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By PingPong

Prophet (3185)

PingPong's picture

30-08-2016, 19:42

Recently artrag showed us how to do v9938 horz smooth scroll .
Examples are uridium total parody (multilayer) in screen 5
He is the developer of the scroll without mask tecnique , he pushed even on screen 8 this.

In your opinion why commercial sw houses did not do the same?
Afaik there are no screen 5 games using this approach or maybe are very rare.
Even on screen 4 there aren't too much examples.

Lazyness ?

Anyone know of examples (like spmanbow) on commercial games?

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By enribar

Paladin (971)

enribar's picture

30-08-2016, 20:13

Mentality, taste and market: "we have thousands of Japanese kids playing RPGs, who cares about SHMUPs with smooth scroll?"
Even Space Manbow doesn't have it...

By tvalenca

Paladin (719)

tvalenca's picture

30-08-2016, 20:25

enribar wrote:

Mentality, taste and market: "we have thousands of Japanese kids playing RPGs, who cares about SHMUPs with smooth scroll?"
Even Space Manbow doesn't have it...

Sort of. Try running it on MSX2+...

By Sandy Brand

Expert (124)

Sandy Brand's picture

30-08-2016, 21:18

enribar wrote:

Mentality, taste and market: "we have thousands of Japanese kids playing RPGs, who cares about SHMUPs with smooth scroll?"

But there were plenty of shoot'em-ups on the NES, so clearly 'hardware' was an important factor here.

By enribar

Paladin (971)

enribar's picture

30-08-2016, 21:31

oh yes hardware, but one step behind there's the logic: it's a waste of effort and money to invest in programming a smooth scroll on a v9938, since the processor is not mainly made for gaming and Japanese like RPGs.
---> Mentality - Taste - Market
I often talk with Japanese users: they were not so obsessed by the smooth scroll, it was and it is an European obsession.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9729)

wolf_'s picture

30-08-2016, 21:31

We have an advantage of some 30 years. Konami and others had to make games for a living. We've been spending years and oodles o' productions just to optimize scroll 'n logo demos. You know, copy scrolls, #18-scrolls, intertwined scrolls (one of those ANMA demos), stretching scrollers etc. etc. Yeah, you can count on it that eventually our scene-style handling of the Z80 and the VDP is more potent than the routines that commercial developers in the 80's used.

We would use bitmap coins in Usas, it's screen 5, no scrolling, plenty o' time, Konami used sprites. Heck, Konami used a genuine outline routine to draw those light glowing effects on those names in the SD Snatcher credits/cityscroll. We'd prolly just store such frames in mem and unpack them as needed.

Three decades, and different objectives, that's the difference.

By AxelStone

Prophet (2641)

AxelStone's picture

30-08-2016, 22:57

wolf_ wrote:

We have an advantage of some 30 years. Konami and others had to make games for a living. We've been spending years and oodles o' productions just to optimize scroll 'n logo demos. You know, copy scrolls, #18-scrolls, intertwined scrolls (one of those ANMA demos), stretching scrollers etc. etc. Yeah, you can count on it that eventually our scene-style handling of the Z80 and the VDP is more potent than the routines that commercial developers in the 80's used.

We would use bitmap coins in Usas, it's screen 5, no scrolling, plenty o' time, Konami used sprites. Heck, Konami used a genuine outline routine to draw those light glowing effects on those names in the SD Snatcher credits/cityscroll. We'd prolly just store such frames in mem and unpack them as needed.

Three decades, and different objectives, that's the difference.

Really a brilliant explanation, totally agree.

By PingPong

Prophet (3185)

PingPong's picture

30-08-2016, 23:07

AxelStone wrote:
wolf_ wrote:

We have an advantage of some 30 years. Konami and others had to make games for a living. We've been spending years and oodles o' productions just to optimize scroll 'n logo demos. You know, copy scrolls, #18-scrolls, intertwined scrolls (one of those ANMA demos), stretching scrollers etc. etc. Yeah, you can count on it that eventually our scene-style handling of the Z80 and the VDP is more potent than the routines that commercial developers in the 80's used.

We would use bitmap coins in Usas, it's screen 5, no scrolling, plenty o' time, Konami used sprites. Heck, Konami used a genuine outline routine to draw those light glowing effects on those names in the SD Snatcher credits/cityscroll. We'd prolly just store such frames in mem and unpack them as needed.

Three decades, and different objectives, that's the difference.

Really a brilliant explanation, totally agree.

I do not agree, instead. look at the speccy or c64... they have tryed the impossible to squeeze the impossibile. maybe if msx had a more diffusion they will increase the efforts... the same thing is for spectrum convertions

By hap

Paragon (2016)

hap's picture

30-08-2016, 23:45

C64/Speccy are from 1982, how many years did it take for games to be technically impressive?

By tvalenca

Paladin (719)

tvalenca's picture

31-08-2016, 04:01

hap wrote:

C64/Speccy are from 1982, how many years did it take for games to be technically impressive?

I don't think the developers maturity had that much to do with it. On both C64 and Speccy you don't have neither tiles nor direct access to VRAM, so if anyone need to scroll anything, they would move pixel by pixel, unless they wanted a really fast scroll effect to move more than a pixel row/column at a time. Neither of those had such thing as hardware-accelerated scrolling...

On the other side, the Texas Instruments VDP used on MSX is tile based and it doesn't allow direct vram access, so it's simpler to move a tile at a time when scrolling. It's actually easier to scroll on MSX1 (8 pixels at a time) than on Spectrum, so developers took a this matter lightly on MSX... And it also makes more sense that Japanese like RPG more than they like shmups...

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6084)

ARTRAG's picture

31-08-2016, 08:19

tvalenca the C64 has tiles in all modes
http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/c64_programmers_reference/c6...
It has hw scrolling (and more) and a larger user base who tried to explore all the hw possibilities of the machine
http://z9.io/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/intro-to-programming...

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