Zanac AI - AI

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By Sylvester

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16-06-2020, 08:41

If google translate did a good job, it seems Zanac AI contains some kind of real AI according to
https://morikatron.ai/2020/05/gameai_history_02/ :)

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By Cooljerk

Rookie (26)

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16-06-2020, 14:10

We need to define 'real AI.' I'd consider 'real AI' to be something like a convolutional neural network applied to vision recognition, aka machine learning, which isn't what they are describing. My japanese is rusty, but from what I read, it sounds more like they're describing hierarchical behavior trees, controlled by a state machine with a seeding value that acts as a "director" ala games like Left 4 Dead.

By tfh

Prophet (2324)

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16-06-2020, 17:55

Cooljerk wrote:

We need to define 'real AI.' I'd consider 'real AI' to be something like a convolutional neural network applied to vision recognition, aka machine learning, which isn't what they are describing. My japanese is rusty, but from what I read, it sounds more like they're describing hierarchical behavior trees, controlled by a state machine with a seeding value that acts as a "director" ala games like Left 4 Dead.

You have to put it in the right context in time.
I doubt neural networking for example were common terms back in '86...

By Manuel

Ascended (16702)

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16-06-2020, 21:13

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_artificial_neural_n... :P

Anyway, I guess the A.I. is about the Automatic Level Control, which I understood means that the game will be more difficult if you shoot more. (And/or have more misses?)
EDIT: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanac

By tfh

Prophet (2324)

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16-06-2020, 21:30

ROFL :)
I stad corrected!

By donluca

Expert (69)

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17-06-2020, 01:02

Indeed.

Zanac predated many modern and well known and appreciated shmups by being the first to implement a rank system.

It's not just how much you shoot, but the better you play, the more difficult the game becomes, in very broad terms.

Try getting the "2" power-up at the beginning and start point blanking enemies and your rank will go wild in a very short time, making the game unbelievably hard.

Nowadays Battle Garegga from 8-ing/Raizing is one of the most appreciated shmups among fans due to its very complex and interesting rank system.

By Cooljerk

Rookie (26)

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17-06-2020, 06:25

tfh wrote:
Cooljerk wrote:

We need to define 'real AI.' I'd consider 'real AI' to be something like a convolutional neural network applied to vision recognition, aka machine learning, which isn't what they are describing. My japanese is rusty, but from what I read, it sounds more like they're describing hierarchical behavior trees, controlled by a state machine with a seeding value that acts as a "director" ala games like Left 4 Dead.

You have to put it in the right context in time.
I doubt neural networking for example were common terms back in '86...

Well, the context of my reply was to a post from 2020, not 1986. The actual article never mentions "real AI," that was the topic title Tongue

An aside, tho, I remember hearing about Neural Network "thinking computers" as far back as 1984 thanks to The Terminator.

By Pentarou

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17-06-2020, 06:36

donluca wrote:

Zanac predated many modern and well known and appreciated shmups by being the first to implement a rank system.

The first? What about Xevious (1983 AC/1984 FC)? The article text event mention Xevious as the inspiration for the "AI".

By Dolphin101546015

Champion (271)

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17-06-2020, 15:07

Cooljerk wrote:

We need to define 'real AI.' I'd consider 'real AI' to be something like a convolutional neural network applied to vision recognition, aka machine learning, which isn't what they are describing.

This is not true, firstly because AI is not just about neural networks.
Secondly, because different units automation systems in games were historically called AI.
And the last: AI, does not mean - the mind. It is nothing more than automation.

By donluca

Expert (69)

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18-06-2020, 22:14

Pentarou wrote:
donluca wrote:

Zanac predated many modern and well known and appreciated shmups by being the first to implement a rank system.

The first? What about Xevious (1983 AC/1984 FC)? The article text event mention Xevious as the inspiration for the "AI".

I admit I have little in-depth experience with Xevious, but IIRC the rank system was actually just enemies moving and shooting faster, which is a bit limited compared to Zanac where it even starts spawning more and harder enemy ships, setting the standard for shmups to come.

Although, yeah, in very broad terms you might think that of a rank system, although not a completely and well fleshed out ones (again, if my memory doesn't fail me).

By ~mk~

Master (239)

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18-06-2020, 23:20

Xevious was pretty advanced too. I recall having read somewhere that enemies would not only adjust the agressiveness dynamically depending on how good you played, but you could also prevent them from coming by destroying the ground radars which detect you. I think that is awesome for a game from 1982. It was also the game that introduced the ground/air enemy types.

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