Screen 4 - vram usage

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By PingPong

Prophet (4088)

PingPong's picture

25-11-2022, 20:37

pizzapower wrote:

Yes, it is an "abstraction" (or whatever you want to call it). I don't like the name, because "hardware abstraction" is something that SOFTWARE DO to hide the intricacies of HARDWARE (or multiple hardware), but that is not what you are talking about.

the terms abstraction does not specifically refer to software vs hw as you said. You proved me that you do not know even the meaning or the concept. An abstraction could be even hw or sw or whatever.

Quote:

Also, being valid on all screen modes is not a prerequisite of hardware specifications (that was the name I was using), only in your weird and contrived concept of "abstraction". Here is another example that contradicts your premise:

This is in contrast with the definition you gave
(A)"is something that SOFTWARE DO to hide the intricacies of HARDWARE".
So the sentence "being valid on all screen mode is not a prerequisite" means NOTHING. Without this prerequisite
your definition of abstraction (A) is not valid. So you agree with me that if the prerequisite is not satisfied, hence R2 is not an abstraction.

Better explained:
Assertion and YOUR definition: an abstraction is something that ..... to hide etc.
If R2 value it is not the same in all screen modes obviously does not hide any thing because OBVIUSLY IT DOES REQUIRE YOU TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT the screen mode. so because the assertion is not satisfied then ....-> not an abstraction by your same definition.

Do you really read and understand what you are writing? ;-) ;-) you are contraddicting yourself by trying to give me an example of my contradiction. Simply ridiculus
;-) ;-)

Quote:

A name table is an "abstraction" of a typographical element.

Did you assume DRUGS? ;-) ;-)

By pizzapower

Master (134)

pizzapower's picture

25-11-2022, 20:55

PingPong wrote:

the terms abstraction does not specifically refer to software vs hw as you said. You proved me that you do not know even the meaning or the concept. An abstraction could be even hw or sw or whatever.

You should put a little more effort into interpreting text. The term "hardware abstraction" exists. Look it up. And I know that it is not what you are talking about, but your use of "abstraction" muddies the waters. Now, shush, I will ignore you from now on.

By Metalion

Paragon (1617)

Metalion's picture

25-11-2022, 20:52

Will moderators close that topic already !?!?!?!?
I'm fed up with your rhetorical fights, guys ...

By PingPong

Prophet (4088)

PingPong's picture

25-11-2022, 20:59

pizzapower wrote:

You should put a little more effort in interpreting text. The term "hardware abstraction" exists. Look it up. And I know that it is not what you are talking about, but your use of "abstraction" muddies the waters. Now, shush, I will ignore you from now on.

little more effort? Again you are contradicting yourself.
The terms "hardware abstration" exists. Who said otherwise? I've just pointed that IT DOES EXISTS and is not limited to SW vs HW instead is a more general concept and now you tell me that is does exists (
as if I had said the opposite). What is simply hilarious is that in a previous post you told "an abstraction is something that software do ......" like if abstraction was only referring to SW things?

Are you joking or you really like to fall in contradictions and look ridiculus? ;-) ;-)

By aoineko

Paladin (813)

aoineko's picture

25-11-2022, 22:36

Perhaps we can agree on this:
- Pages are a "technical specification" of V9938 since they are explicitly defined in the official documentation,
- PingPong thinks that pages do not deserve this qualification (for its own reasons explained in this thread).

There is enough information for everyone to make up their own minds.

By PingPong

Prophet (4088)

PingPong's picture

25-11-2022, 23:11

aoineko wrote:

Perhaps we can agree on this:
- PingPong thinks that pages do not deserve this qualification (for its own reasons explained in this thread).

This is not exact:
a) Pages are a concept that V9938 docs somewhere use.
b) This does not mean the V9938 had the concept of pages itself, the v9938 docs have
c) R#2 is not a page oriented register, it's only what it is created for : a register, holding a base memory address
d) as an Big smile address register it could not be a page register, because it holds an address not a logical page.
e) one could argue that the bit nTh of whatever register could be used to select a page in a specific bitmap mode. And this is true, (not only in bitmap modes) but this abstraction is in the mind of the people that say this. It is not a VDP concept, like for example is the X, Y coordinate used in a logical command register (which in contrast is a TRUE abstraction, a thing that hide hw low level complexity, in this case the complexity of calculating the address of a pixel which is the target of a specific logical vdp command)

Hope this is clear.

By aoineko

Paladin (813)

aoineko's picture

25-11-2022, 23:37

Okay, let's try again:
- The official V9938 documentation clearly defines register R#2 as the register to be used to change the displayed page (both in the Page Concept part and in the description of each bitmap mode),
- PingPong does not agree with this definition of register R#2 (for its own reasons explained on this thread).

By PingPong

Prophet (4088)

PingPong's picture

26-11-2022, 00:23

aoineko wrote:

Okay, let's try again: ;-)
- The official V9938 documentation clearly defines register R#2 as the register to be used to change the

OK, let's re-try again:
the official docs say that this register could be used to change the page. but is does contain a bunch of bits needed to form an Address so it is a address register. the concept of page IS NOT in the V9938 itself otherwie the R#2 would be
Here from the tech docs about registers:

vdp docs wrote:

2.1.2. Table Base address registers
When displaying information on the screen, VDP uses color, pattern, sprite and other
information from video RAM. It is important to set proper starting addresses of such VRAM
locations by writing to specified table base address registers
.
Note: you should ensure that unused bits are set to 0. Further in the book bit set to
“0” will mean that this bit has to be set to 0, “1” will mean that this bit has to be set to 1,
and “*” will mean that value of the bit does not matter.
MSB 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 LSB
R#2 0 A16 A15 A14 A13 A12 A11 A10 Pattern layout table

It is not that i cannot agree with this definition, it is that even the V9938 define this an an pattern layout address register. This is not by accident.

By pizzapower

Master (134)

pizzapower's picture

26-11-2022, 00:59

aoineko wrote:

Okay, let's try again:
- The official V9938 documentation clearly defines register R#2 as the register to be used to change the displayed page (both in the Page Concept part and in the description of each bitmap mode),
- PingPong does not agree with this definition of register R#2 (for its own reasons explained on this thread).

I recommend you not to waste your time. The worst part is that I completely understand where PingPong is coming from, but I reject his assumptions of what would be required to make pages a hardware specification or even know what that means to him. Probably because we disagree on what a page is supposed to be and how integrated to the other components it's supposed to be.

That was the real dispute, but since then he's been moving the goal post and fixating on the meaning of R#2. So after all the tiresome repetition, ramblings and cherry-picking I'm not sure I want to have any sort of conversation with PingPong, but that's cool too, I will just ignore him everywhere I go.

By aoineko

Paladin (813)

aoineko's picture

26-11-2022, 01:07

PingPong wrote:

It is not that i cannot agree with this definition, it is that even the V9938 define this an an pattern layout address register. This is not by accident.

Except that nobody questions the fact that R#2 bits are defined as pattern table address for the non-bitmap mode.
On the other hand, for all the bitmap modes of the MSX2, the V9938 documentation clearly explains the meaning of the bits as being the page number to be displayed.


You are of course free to disagree with the official V9938 documentation and have your own definition if you wish, but that does not change the facts.

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