Joystick Port

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By Danjovic

Champion (321)

Danjovic's picture

24-08-2022, 23:04

FM-Towns joypads are fully compatible with MSX despite they do not follow the exact schematics of the MSX Tech Book because BIOS routines take into account solely the state of the bits read by register 14 and nothing else matters.

Other peripherals can be fully compatible with MSX without following the exact schematics suggested on MSX Tech Book, for example the paddles.

By gdx

Enlighted (6005)

gdx's picture

25-08-2022, 02:50

sd_snatcher wrote:

Fujitsu clearly lied about their "MSX compatibility" claim. It was just a marketing ploy.

Fujitsu has never claimed compatibility with MSX. Compatibility doesn't work both ways and it was not his interest. Fujitsu even placed the connectors in depth to make it difficult to use the MSX / X68000 controllers.

sd_snatcher wrote:

Claiming full MSX compatibility is misleading and dishonest.

It seems so obvious to you that you didn't give any valid argument. Have you researched what open collector means and what is it for?

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3609)

sd_snatcher's picture

25-08-2022, 02:52

Seriously? A double flame bait at this point? I had you in greater regard than this.

But let's feed the troll a bit with his own food. Smile

Danjovic wrote:

FM-Towns joypads are fully compatible with MSX despite they do not follow the exact schematics of the MSX Tech Book because BIOS routines take into account solely the state of the bits read by register 14 and nothing else matters.

Yes, under a very self-serving and narrow minded concept of "fully compatible", they are. You're entitled to your own opinion, as they say.

People like to believe the weirdest things. For example, can you believe that there are those that also cherry pick info this way to prove their belief that vaccines cause autism?

Quote:

Other peripherals can be fully compatible with MSX without following the exact schematics suggested on MSX Tech Book, for example the paddles.

We both know where do you want to arrive with this bait, right?

My reply is very simple: yes, definitely it's possible. Oduvaldo has just done something like this, and I'm sure you know about that. And he approached me to find out why his paddle wasn't being detected. He's such a nice guy, and nice team player, and now his paddles work like a charm.

As for other designs, if the creator likes to aggregate, I'm sure he will find a way to make a design that behaves exactly like the 74LS123 chip.

Otherwise, if he just likes to do things "his own way", I'm also fine with this. But he just shouldn't come to pester me if it doesn't work with my software or patches. I'm definitely not going to waste my time with someone who doesn't want to aggregate and play nice. He can waste his own time trying to fit menus for manual selection inside small MSX ROMs. I don't have he slightest pleasure of using my hobby time for something like this.

By gdx

Enlighted (6005)

gdx's picture

25-08-2022, 03:06

Why do you treat people as dishonest and troll? Your only argument is the ASCII schema which you consider a quran or a bible. Why don't you want to admit that ASCII created a fairly open standard. And that's what I love about MSX.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6402)

mars2000you's picture

25-08-2022, 03:34

It's indeed disappointing to see that he never takes in account all the MSX history, which has its origin in computers released before, what concerns the joystick port. This part is absolutely amazing : " In addition, even before the appearance of MSX, Sharp's X1 (1982), Matsushita Tsushin Kogyo 's JR-200, and Toshiba's Pasopia 7 (1983, using the joystick adapter JOY PAC2) can also use the MSX-spec 2-button joystick. ".

Besides, he can't mention one MSX software that will not work correctly with FM-TOWNS pads. The fact that MSX joysticks are not compatible with FM-TOWNS seems for him enough to suspect potential problems when FM-TOWNS pads are used on MSX.

I must also say that we don't talk about a FM-TOWNS wiki, but a MSX wiki. It's not our role to prevent FM-TOWNS players that MSX joysticks are not compatible with FM-TOWNS software.

Last word: all the comments about 'protecting the sales of an adapter' are pure speculation. Maybe a form of jealousy?

By NetNomad

Resident (49)

NetNomad's picture

25-08-2022, 05:47

Does anyone think they'll change anyone else's mind at this point? Why risk someone with as much to offer as sd_snatcher (let alone anyone) deleting their account over a ground pin? I think there are few if any points left to be made and all that can follow is personal attacks, and it might feel good to post those today but it will feel downright awful to read them tomorrow.

By Danjovic

Champion (321)

Danjovic's picture

25-08-2022, 06:33

sd_snatcher wrote:

...You're entitled to your own opinion...

I've provided objective information that can be proven true upon the technical analysis of both the circuits and the BIOS routines involved. Hence is a fact.

Quote:

My reply is very simple: yes, definitely it's possible...

That's the exact point. The Technical Data Books provide guidance, but are far from being the ultimate rule for everything MSX.

NetNomad wrote:

I think there are few if any points left to be made and all that can follow is personal attacks...

Sure! That's why I am ignoring all impoliteness and off topics and restricting myself to the technical aspects.

By Danjovic

Champion (321)

Danjovic's picture

25-08-2022, 07:08

Danjovic wrote:

I've provided objective information that can be proven true upon the technical analysis of both the circuits and the BIOS routines involved. Hence is a fact.

I would like to rectify myself at one point that I missed: The FM-Towns has a shoulder button on pin 8, hence it is not recommended to connect it directly to the MSX joystick port. Better use an adapter to isolate this pin.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3609)

sd_snatcher's picture

25-08-2022, 08:00

gdx wrote:

It seems so obvious to you that you didn't give any valid argument. Have you researched what open collector means and what is it for?

If that was a try of an insult, it has fallen short, as obviously I know what open collector means and its uses.

Unless you stop hiding yourself behind loose statements and come up with a complete argument about what you're trying to prove with the open collector term, it's only possible assume that you have no damn clue about what you're talking about.

gdx wrote:

Why do you treat people as dishonest and troll?

Because, after all the false accusations and personal attacks were proved to be wrong and just misunderstandings or paranoia, some people still come back here to pester every time MSX-HID is mentioned.

And such people failed to answer this simples question: "What exactly do you want now?".

Without that answer the two only possible explanation is either (1) hidden intentions, or (2) pure trolling. Which one is your case then?

Quote:

Your only argument is the ASCII schema which you consider a quran or a bible. Why don't you want to admit that ASCII created a fairly open standard. And that's what I love about MSX.

At least I quote something official. You cannot even construct a full argument and keep hiding yourself into loose statements that you don't connect into a line of thought. It's just "everyone should bow to my personal opinion" and nothing else. I can't possibly agree with that, sorry.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3609)

sd_snatcher's picture

25-08-2022, 08:57

mars2000you wrote:

It's indeed disappointing to see that he never takes in account all the MSX history, which has its origin in computers released before, what concerns the joystick port. This part is absolutely amazing : " In addition, even before the appearance of MSX, Sharp's X1 (1982), Matsushita Tsushin Kogyo 's JR-200, and Toshiba's Pasopia 7 (1983, using the joystick adapter JOY PAC2) can also use the MSX-spec 2-button joystick. ".

Same deal here. Since you didn't bother to construct a whole argument and just has thrown a random disconnected statement, I wouldn't bother to analyze what you're trying to imply with this.

Construct a proper argument "given this fact, it is proven that x, y, and z" then maybe we can reach an agreement. But otherwise it seems you prefer to just resort to cheap fallacy tactics to appeal to the crowd.

Quote:

Besides, he can't mention one MSX software that will not work correctly with FM-TOWNS pads. The fact that MSX joysticks are not compatible with FM-TOWNS seems for him enough to suspect potential problems when FM-TOWNS pads are used on MSX.

Again, you appeal to fallacies like ad-hominen due to the lack of knowledge to even properly argue. If you can't see that there are models of FM-Towns/compatible controllers that can damage the MSX joystick port, sorry, there's nothing I'll explain that will convince you. It's like trying to argue with an anti-vaxxer. Belief is above reason.

Quote:

I must also say that we don't talk about a FM-TOWNS wiki, but a MSX wiki. It's not our role to prevent FM-TOWNS players that MSX joysticks are not compatible with FM-TOWNS software.

Calm down. It seems you have missed the irony on what I said about listing FM-Towns software on the MSX-Wiki...

Quote:

Last word: all the comments about 'protecting the sales of an adapter' are pure speculation.

Are you sure you want to lecture me about speculation? This whole thread is full of speculation, paranoia and people falsely accusing me of this and that. I wonder why just now the remedy seems to be bitter. Double standards, anyone?

And I'll ask you the same question I asked to gdx:

After all the false accusations and personal attacks were proved to be wrong and just misunderstandings or paranoia, some people still come back here to pester every time MSX-HID is mentioned.

And such people failed to answer this simples question: "What exactly do you want now?".

Without that answer the two only possible explanation is either (1) hidden intentions, or (2) pure trolling. Which one is your case then?

Quote:

Maybe a form of jealousy?

Seriously? Judging by the fact that you lost your reasoning and appealed to a pure personal attack, It's only possible to assume that the supposition was true.

And jealously of what, specifically? This is so laughable as I don't even sell adapters.

OTOH, jealously wasn't a possibility for the pricking I'm seeing here against an algorithm. Since you mentioned it yourself, maybe there's some projection going on?

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