Problem in MSX2 HB-F5 SCART cable!

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By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

26-09-2010, 22:22

Hello, i have some problems with the SCART output in my Msx2 HB-F5, i tried with a common SCART-SCART PAL cable, i tried it in monitor PHILIPS CM 8802, and other 50Hz-60Hz TV LCD, the msx boot logo dont show (black screen) but the MSXDOS appear after (using sinfox) with red-tinted image, like this, (This image is the result to try the SCART in LCD SAMSUNG):

img822.imageshack.us/img822/9082/allinredtunescartpal.jpg

After that i decided to build a new SCART PAL cable following the diagram below, but i get same red effect and no msx boot showed (black screen in msx logo boot):

img178.imageshack.us/img178/5030/picture1d.jpg

Both cables SCART PAL, works ok with another devices PAL, like DVD player, run normal with full colours, then the cable that i built and the another are ok, anyways i tested again the cable SCART-SCART PAL pins and seems that the pins are correct.

In Japanese manual of HB-F5 i saw that this computer needs to use with RGB SCART 21 (Japanese) the manual says VMC-2121, will be:

d.hatena.ne.jp/keyword/VMC-2121

and i know that Japanese SCART have same number of pins like SCART PAL, of course, but the signals are different, then some signals pins are not the same, then i built a SCART 21 JAPANESE to SCART PAL following this diagram:

img826.imageshack.us/img826/7954/picture2vq.jpg

I built the cable like diagram shows, only points that i dont wire following the diagram are points 10 and 12 (EU) and 12 (JP), also tell that i grounded all points needed like i draw in black in diagram and then i conected this grounded pins to pin 21, to avoid some wires, then i hooked the SCART21 JAPANESE plug to the MSX and the other SCART part to the TV, result of that is here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uG7fNs_fl4&feature=player_embedded

Seems like the picture now is correct colours but the image blinking a lot, with correct colours i mean that if you see the video frame by frame you can see logo appears msx, partially, with correct colour and crooked to the right, but the red-tinted image effect seems not appear now, but seems that some problem of frequency synchronization is happen.

I dont know what could be the problem, the PAL SCART is okay because it works with other devices, the Japanese 21 SCART to SCART PAL that i made seems good wired like above diagram but dont work like as you will see shown in the video, I dont Know if I would have to add resistors or capacitors to try get a stable image, or if the SCART build into the HB-F5 is the problem, i´m very lost now...Also i noticed that in HB-F5 motherboard there is some circular devices called RV1(R), RV2(B), RV3(G), i think this RGB devices is for correct colours but not frequency, really i dont know. The RGB controls are in this image:

img692.imageshack.us/img692/562/boardp.jpg

For now, i could make some mods in the HB-F5, i changed the roms with update to MSX2+, z80 change, change VDP to V9958 (the problem RGB is the same than V9938, now i have reinstalled the V9938, because with the RGB problem i think that the cause was the VDP 9958, then i reinstalled the V9938 again), redirect internal RAM from SLOT 0-X to SLOT 3-X. (Thanks a lot NYYRIKKI for help).

With composite video, before made that mods i could see MSX logo and basic and built-in firmware all in colour using th lcd samsung, after the mods when i turn on the msx, the MSX boot logo shows in black and White, also basic and MSXDOS-2, sometimes, to try explain this better:

-COMPOSITE VIDEO PROBLEM 1:
I turned ON msx, the MSX LOGO appear with no color, in B/W, the MSX DOS and BASIC also with no colour, video signal should be 60Hz ( the lcd is NTSC compatible). I tried a game from Mmc/sinfox and runs in color!!Same happens with V9958

-COMPOSITE VIDEO PROBLEM 2:
I turned ON msx mantain H key (50Hz addon in ROMS) during boot, the MSX LOGO appear with no color, then after the boot logo the MSX DOS and BASIC appear in full colour. Same happens with V9958

That problems seems like i could avoid if i get any NTSC-PAL composite conversor device i think, but the composite video gives a very painful quality, this is the reason to try the option SCART, but I'm running out of ideas on how to fix it, i wonder if anyone have any Japanese MSX with in-built male SCART like HB-F5, will be great to know the perfect conections to made the cable or capacitors, resistors addons if it needed, anyways i dont know if this could solve the problem.

Thanks a lot for help.
Regards.

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By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

27-09-2010, 01:04

Just some questions / observations:

  • What's this 'Japanese SCART pinout' ? Any reference? Even Wikipedia article on SCART doesn't mention different pinouts. :-?
  • Have you tried with plain, fully wired SCART-SCART cable bought in a store, vs. one you wired up yourself? In case you have monitor/TV with multiple SCART connectors, have you tried each, with that pre-built SCART cable?
  • Does the machine start up 50 or 60 Hz refresh by default (check BIOS ID bytes, MSXMEM screenshot says 60 Hz default)? If so, what happens when setting 50 Hz (manually) ?
  • 50/60 Hz and PAL/NTSC are 2 different things, and PAL/NTSC timing also applies to some degree when using RGB, because you use a composite sync signal in that case. With exact timings depending on how that composite sync is encoded. Possibly a monitor/TV can handle 60 Hz, but not true NTSC timings (for example this is the case with my old TV).
  • On photos in an earlier thread, I see 2 crystals: near videochip (21.5 MHz I assume?), and next to clockchip (32 kHz). Is that it, or can you find another crystal somewhere (and what frequency) ?

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5397)

NYYRIKKI's picture

27-09-2010, 02:59

What's this 'Japanese SCART pinout' ? Any reference? Even Wikipedia article on SCART doesn't mention different pinouts. :-?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=japanese+scart&l=1

... it is not really SCART, but just RGB output... It just happens to use same connector.

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

27-09-2010, 03:39

I'd just grab a few pins & check where they go to, and/or locate some points on the board that should be on the connector somewhere, and check on which pin(s). For example various ground points, composite video / audio signals on modulator, or +12V via series resistor (function switch, SCART pin 8).

Check for a few pins/signals & it should be pretty clear whether connector is plain SCART or some custom pinout.

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

28-09-2010, 23:36

Hi! Retrotechie and NYYRIKKI, thanks a lot for reply and sorry for the delay, I have found a solution but first i tried to reply some above observations first.

# What's this 'Japanese SCART pinout' ? Any reference? Even Wikipedia article on SCART doesn't mention different pinouts

Sorry for call it SCART, like NYYRIKKI said is just RGB output that uses SCART same connector, with same number of Pins on it. About this i found a Korean page with complete information about the RGB OUTPUT and with some msx info about it.
Original:

painkilla.egloos.com/1592210

Translate:

translate.google.es/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpainkilla.egloos.com%2F1592210&sl=ko&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

# Have you tried with plain, fully wired SCART-SCART cable bought in a store, vs. one you wired up yourself? In case you have monitor/TV with multiple SCART connectors, have you tried each, with that pre-built SCART cable?
# Does the machine start up 50 or 60 Hz refresh by default (check BIOS ID bytes, MSXMEM screenshot says 60 Hz default)? If so, what happens when setting 50 Hz (manually) ?
# 50/60 Hz and PAL/NTSC are 2 different things, and PAL/NTSC timing also applies to some degree when using RGB, because you use a composite sync signal in that case. With exact timings depending on how that composite sync is encoded. Possibly a monitor/TV can handle 60 Hz, but not true NTSC timings (for example this is the case with my old TV).

The PAL SCART-SCART plane didnt work even if pug into RGB IN SCART TV conector, only shows RED full image, even 50Hz is selected with H key (utility in the roms) no works with full colour, the press of H key is for select in boot 60Hz or 50Hz, if i use composite only signal in 60Hz i saw in screen all in B/W, with 50hz i can see perfect colour in composite but only in BASIC or MSXDOS-2, msx logo boot shows up in B/W. I suppose that a NTSC-PAL composite converted is needed to fix that using MSX composite signal. Now after fix the point in RGB cable i can see perfect colour in monitor PHILIPS CM 8802, also i tried with LCD SONY KDL series and perfect colour now after the fix.

On photos in an earlier thread, I see 2 crystals: near videochip (21.5 MHz I assume?), and next to clockchip (32 kHz). Is that it, or can you find another crystal somewhere (and what frequency) ?

About this, i didnt find another more than 2 crystals, there is one near VDP the X1, label like 21.47727Mhz (write it in solder side, in component side near the crystal is write like 21.47727KHZ), another is X2 label like 32.768K (write it in solder side, in component side is write the same 32.768K) .For better view this i´m just now preparing a post with certain points that i found to "try the MSX SUPER TURBO install into the HB-F5".

Ok, this is the "MSX HB-F5 RGB" to "SCART TV EURO" solution pinout, i found some diagrams how to build this RGB cable but this diagrams were not clear about how to connect the INPUT and OUTPUT signals, anyways here is the solution:

img214.imageshack.us/img214/2877/msxrgb.jpg

I've noticed that in the HB-F5 the image is more perfect than the HB-F9s, both with VDP 9958, in HB-F9s you´ll see some vertical blur lines in screen , almost negligible, only could see this lines if the background in screen is white, like in konami logo, but in the HB-F5 the image is more sharper and the effect of blurred vertical lines displayed on the HB-F9S is not appreciated, i think this could be VDP 9958 problem, wait, i´ll try to conect both computers to the 46" LCD, in there these differences should be seeing better...
. . .

Ok, i made 2 photos of Konami Logo, the photos have some effects produced by the camera ,but if we looking at in full-screen view from your PC monitor ,and at a distance like 1 meter or more, you could see the vertical line which talk above.
The images are in this link:

www.megaupload.com/?d=S0751ZQJ

I dont know if the problem could be the HB-F9s SCART cable, in it i saw 3 capacitors each one for signals R, G, and B, the capacitors are 10V and 100uF, this capacitors is located in the SCART that conect to TV. Also tell that in the SCART HB-F9s cable, in the middle there is a little box with composite OUT and audio OUT, you´ll see this little OUTPUT box in the images link above, i dont know if this "little box" will be the problem of the vertical effect.

Ok, more things, i noticed that when i turned on the HB-F9s the MSX image appear automatically in LCD TV, no need to change the TV to AV position, in the HB-F5 this is not doing automatically, i have to set the TV in AV position once i turned on the MSX, i wonder how could i get to do that in HB-F5, i think this happen because in the HB-F9s the "AV CONTROL" is on, in some diagrams i saw that the "AV CONTROL" in Japanese RGB is pin 11, and it will be goes to pin 8 in EUR SCART, this pin 8 is "FUNCTION SELECT (SWITCH SIGNAL IN)" i suppose this will be the problem, but if you saw the HB-F5 diagram you´ll notice that this pin11 (in Japanese SCART) is conected to nowhere into HB-F5 motherboard. I wonder how could i try this AV control function if will be possible.

The last thing, also not much important is that the image in LCD 16:9 native, with LCD set to 4:3 i´ll see the image below in basic, a little slightly to the right, it seems only happen in basic, towards controls LCD i could to move to the left a little, is there any way to avoid this defect lateral side?

img375.imageshack.us/img375/1871/efectolateral.jpg

Thanks a lot again for the help.
Regards.

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

29-09-2010, 17:51

Crazy to use SCART connector, with same signals but different layout... Evil Stupid Japanese ignoring that world is bigger than their island - nothing personal but it is annoying at times.

Reason I asked about Xtals, is video encoding standard. To get color, a short pulse train called "color burst" is inserted in composite video signal, and frequency depends on TV standard: PAL: 4.43 MHz, NTSC: 3.58 MHz.

MSX2 videochip always uses same crystal: 21.48 MHz, and 3.58 MHz (=CPU clock) is exactly 1/6 of this. If video encoding uses 3.58 MHz, you can be sure it uses same 1/6 of VDP clock. But if video encoding uses 4.43 MHz, there will be a separate Xtal for that frequency. Read: separate 4.43 MHz Xtal -> video encoding will be PAL. No separate 4.43 MHz crystal anywhere -> video encoding will be NTSC. So your findings indicate video encoding is NTSC, hardware-wise. Together with Japanese layout on the SCART connector, I very much doubt the Spanish ROMs were a factory job. Probably someone imported this machine from Japan & put Spanish ROMs in there.

I've noticed that in the HB-F5 the image is more perfect than the HB-F9s, both with VDP 9958, in HB-F9s you´ll see some vertical blur lines in screen , almost negligible, only could see this lines if the background in screen is white, like in konami logo, but in the HB-F5 the image is more sharper and the effect of blurred vertical lines displayed on the HB-F9S is not appreciated (..) I dont know if the problem could be the HB-F9s SCART cable, in it i saw 3 capacitors each one for signals R, G, and B, the capacitors are 10V and 100uF, this capacitors is located in the SCART that conect to TV. Also tell that in the SCART HB-F9s cable, in the middle there is a little box with composite OUT and audio OUT,
With such disturbances there's always 2 suspects: power-supply related, and cabling. This is one of the things a filter on VDP's (DAC) power might fix, or cause when missing. Also IMHO cables should be wires only, if extra components are needed they should be in equipment on either side, not in the cable... ;)

Ok, more things, i noticed that when i turned on the HB-F9s the MSX image appear automatically in LCD TV, no need to change the TV to AV position, in the HB-F5 this is not doing automatically, i have to set the TV in AV position once i turned on the MSX, i wonder how could i get to do that in HB-F5, i think this happen because in the HB-F9s the "AV CONTROL" is on, in some diagrams i saw that the "AV CONTROL" in Japanese RGB is pin 11, and it will be goes to pin 8 in EUR SCART, this pin 8 is "FUNCTION SELECT (SWITCH SIGNAL IN)" i suppose this will be the problem, but if you saw the HB-F5 diagram you´ll notice that this pin11 (in Japanese SCART) is conected to nowhere into HB-F5 motherboard. I wonder how could i try this AV control function if will be possible.
Well that's about it - usually this 'signal' is just a series resistor (couple of hundred Ohms - 1K typically, see some other MSX schematics) connected to +12V. So it would be easy to add. But it isn't important (and +12V has potential to kill stuff!) so I wouldn't bother if you can do without.

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5397)

NYYRIKKI's picture

30-09-2010, 04:58

The last thing, also not much important is that the image in LCD 16:9 native, with LCD set to 4:3 i´ll see the image below in basic, a little slightly to the right, it seems only happen in basic, towards controls LCD i could to move to the left a little, is there any way to avoid this defect lateral side?

It seems to be common problem with LCD TV's. I have Samsung and it has exactly same problem when I connect my MSX tR. (also NTSC color burst) My suggestion: USE A REAL MONITOR! You won't regret.

The modern LCD TV's seem to be pretty bad when it comes to analog signals MSX computers are outputing. Same goes with video projectors (I needed to test at least half dozen of video projectors to find one, that actually did output even reasonable quality picture on MSX) If you want me to prove this I've made a monitor test program that will show you how horribly bad your TV actually is. Sometimes the TV setup have some "picture improvement features" that can be turned off to get a bit better picture, but usually even that does not help.

For this problem I don't think there is much you can do... You can try: SET ADJUST (-7,0)

I very much doubt the Spanish ROMs were a factory job. Probably someone imported this machine from Japan & put Spanish ROMs in there.

You can blame me & Dhampird Tongue

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

30-09-2010, 09:16

Hi NYYRIKKI, yes i could fix the horizontal problem with LCD options, leveraging discuss the issue Monitor instead of Lcd monitor, now i have a PHILIPS CM 8802 and the image is pretty on it but i´m wondering which monitor models are best than this (any SONY TRINITON for MSX?), i think this CM 8802 have decent screen and size control options but , which MSX monitors models are the best and where could i find today? will be interesting get one with more inches and more flat screen like old triniton models with Black Case will be much perfect!

About video projectors, some time ago i had Sanyo PLV-Z2, good to see things in YPbPr, but the S-video and composite are awful to use with consoles for example... I thing that the video projectors like BARCO models are the best but much more heavy and bigger; Not that I´m going to buy a projector but I´m quite curious to know which models have found with good result testing MSX (about that program you commented could you send me to my mail?,Thanks)

About another monitors, like PC monitors, i have a 19" MITSUBISHI Diamond Pro (CRT) "lonely" and i wonder if this could be use with MSX, only VGA conection, time ago i saw a brazilian youtube video in which a guy made some tests into A1ST with a device called "Arcade RGBS CGA/EGA/YUV TO 2 VGA CONVERTER" conecting MSX direct RGB signals to this device and using 5V, i found the video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl6AFolVO4U

The device could find it in ebay, but i wonder if this could be accept all RGB direct signals from any MSX, i think this is the only "cheap" way to try a MSX into CRT using VGA, right?

Regards.LOL!

By Manuel

Ascended (15819)

Manuel's picture

30-09-2010, 19:51

Trinitron: Yes, Sony KX-14CP1. I'm using it for several years now Smile

By makinavaja

Master (208)

makinavaja's picture

24-07-2012, 15:39

Hi
Recently I have been readling a lot this post, because now I'm the owner of one of these hb-f5 computers
I have followed this diagram:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2877/msxrgb.jpg
But it doeesnt works... all I get its a stable image with strange colors (it seems they came from red alone). Also, the sound its ok too.

Can it be any mistake on the picture of the link?

By jltursan

Prophet (2191)

jltursan's picture

24-07-2012, 18:44

The pinouts seems correct. Check this japanese page and look for the A21A connector pinout.

Have you tied all the grounds?. Do you have any other jap machine with 21pin connector to test?

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