Trying MSX SUPER TURBO in Msx2 HB-F9s...

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By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3088)

sd_snatcher's picture

22-10-2010, 00:00

@Dhampird

For 10MHz full (without the ROM #OE slowdown), you can also try to replace the EPROMs with flash chips, as those are faster.

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

22-10-2010, 03:42

And what about a turbo kit based on this idea:

- Crystal1: 20MHz for internal operations, since many instructions take a lot of cycles
- Crystal2: 7MHz for RAM/ROM access (selected when /MERQ is activated)

The Mostek MK3880 manual has got a nice breakdown of what all those cycles are used for. Basically: during most of those cycles, the Z80 is talking to the outside world somehow. For example: fetch CB / DD / FD instruction byte, fetch next instruction byte, fetch data byte, (do some operation on it), write data byte back.

Switching clock frequencies is difficult enough, switching back & forth in the course of a few memory cycles would be harder. And as you'll understand from the above, with little gain to be had.

As for fast memory: with decent speed EPROMs & RAM, the MSX-engine (S3527 / S1985) becomes the bottleneck. Just check datasheets of those, and you'll see there are relatively long delays (60~80 ns range) for various #CS / #SLTSL signals to respond to input / clock changes. To speed that up, you'd have to replace the engine itself with something that generates those signals faster. At that point you're moving into 1chipMSX / FPGA territory... BA-team

One thing that might be interesting is remove the wait cycle that MSX inserts into every Z80 M1 cycle (instruction fetch). Shouldn't be too hard, but can't say I've tried or know what problems might result... (hint: have a go & post results, please Wink )

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

26-10-2010, 01:41

Hello ,sorry for the delay in replying, i conected the #IORQ and ROM pin22 #OE (common between roms IC11 and IC12 that also goes to S1985 pin 50) to diode inputs in Msx Super Turbo, using 10MHz. The result is that the Msx Super Turbo dont work when i switch between Turbo ON and Turbo OFF, it seems that this way disable completly the clock functions, no speed increases in Turbo ON position and now the Led does not shine or less than half of its intensity.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3088)

sd_snatcher's picture

26-10-2010, 22:11

@Dhampird

The delay for re-enabling the turbo is too big for this purpose... On MSX-BASIC it will probably be off most of the time. But this test proved that when the Z80 did run on RAM, it was @10MHz and didn't crashed.

Try this configuration running MSX-DOS2 and also the games FireHawk and Elite (dsk version), please, as those games do work mainly on RAM.

If both games run fine, the problem to run @10MHz is really the slow EPROM. Then you should try to replace the EPROM with a faster flash and disconnect the #OE of the flash from the diode.

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

04-11-2010, 06:39

@Dhampird

The delay for re-enabling the turbo is too big for this purpose... On MSX-BASIC it will probably be off most of the time. But this test proved that when the Z80 did run on RAM, it was @10MHz and didn't crashed.

Try this configuration running MSX-DOS2 and also the games FireHawk and Elite (dsk version), please, as those games do work mainly on RAM.

If both games run fine, the problem to run @10MHz is really the slow EPROM. Then you should try to replace the EPROM with a faster flash and disconnect the #OE of the flash from the diode.

Hello, sorry for delay in reply, i could try Firehawk.dsk (i didnt find Elite.dsk version anywhere) with 10Mhz and #OE eprom signals conected to diode in Msx Super Turbo, the msx didnt crash, the game works well, and no speed increased in game, to load the game i used MMC/SD Sinfox with DISKMAN tool. I think that the speed that i have now for the games is perfect, now i have 7.37Mhz installed, 8Mhz seems a lot of speed to playable some games, and more of that Mhz could be a unplayable experience. I think the most reasonable is 7.680 Mhz Crystal talking to playing games, that was the main reason for installing the Msx Super Turbo, for gaming purpose, about the change with flash ic, i think the eproms and flash are not the same signals and to perform that i´ll have to rewire some flash points, which flash ic replace the 27c256 and 27c512 eproms? Thanks for the alternative idea.

Well, i´ve started to try some carts in specially to test a little the Msx Super Turbo, i get some problems, the problem is the MMC/SD Sinfox, i loaded some games using DISKMAN, .dsk versions and for example if i load the Metal Gear 2.dsk. with Sinfox in SLOT1 or SLOT2, when the game is coming to run in the screen appear that the SCC of Sinfox is present, but when i put the Turbo in ON position, the sound is distorted, same happen when i try with utility FLASHMAN another SCC games, the games works fine when Turbo is OFF, but when Turbo is ON the sound is distorted.

I could solve this in part, I mean, when i use Sinfox in SLOT1 and then i put in SLOT2 the LPE-SAN3-V2 sound cart, this solves the problem only for .dsk games that needs SCC provided with a selector in software, because i can tell which slot will be use the SCC by the game, in this case SLOT2, the sound card cartridge carries its own 3.58MHz crystal and it seems that is the reason why the Sinfox SCC distorted the sound, because i think that the SInfox has not built crystal on it, (i ´m wondering if there is solution by software to this Sinfox problem or will be possible to add a 3.58Mhz to Sinfox to mantain SCC sound stable in Turbo ON mode)

This will be a solution only for .dsk games that needs SCC, (using LPE-SAN3-V2 sound cart in SLOT2 and if the software allow select SCC slot) but if i load roms using FLASHMAN utility there is no option to tell which SCC should be selected, i noticed that using FLASHMAN utility after loaded any rom into bank memory, when the msx boot after mantain msx Spacebar there is a the Bank selection game menu, the last option shows in screen is:

T. A1 WX/WSX/ST/GT TURBO ON

I tried to press T key and then the number of the game listed in that menu, i didnt get any results using this way, also i dont know if i´m using right way this Turbo Sinfox option, the T. Sinfox option it seems that only could be activated if i press T. key during msx boot, after that i could see when sinfox load in screen like the Turbo Option is ON, but no effect in game, if after that i reboot the msx without press the T. key in boot i saw like the Turbo ON dont appear when sinfox is loading in the system. i´m wonder how works this Turbo Sinfox option and if that could solve the Turbo problem for the SCC. Sinfox manual tells that the Turbo option is for Panasonic WX/WSX at 5.37Mhz clock mode and Msx Turbo R to active R800 mode.

I dont know if i install a 3.58Mhz crystal in SCC Sinfox will fix the problem when Msx Super Turbo in on, and how to try that if that will be a possible solution, anyways this made wondering me if i could experiment same problem with SCC sound if i´ll try for example original msx games that uses SCC (i dont have anyone here now) like F1-Spirit, Nemesis 3, etc. I think no one SCC Konami games are prepared to use with Turbo upgrades or if this games was designed for use with any kind of Turbo upgrades, i doubt it. I bought also a MegaflashROM SCC+, now i´m waiting for it, i´m wondering if this hardware could experiment same problems related with Sinfox.

Thanks for help and reading.
Regards.

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

04-11-2010, 07:33

What a long story to explain "Turbo is working fine, sound carts don't sound normal @turbo, and maybe the EPROMs I used are too slow". Big smile Btw: what speed are those EPROMs?

Sure you could replace with Flash but then you'd have to deal with different pinout as Flash EPROMs are normally 1Mbit+ and 32-pin, vs. 28-pin for 32/64KB EPROMs. If you use the UV-erasable EPROMs, you should be able to find ~90 ns speed grades, perhaps even faster. Maybe you used slower ones like 120 or 150 ns?

As for the sound going weird @turbo, that's 'normal', practically all sound carts will have that (why add internal Xtal oscillator when fixed 3.58 MHz clock is supposed to be on the cartridge bus, right? makes no sense).

For most sound carts you can fix this by adding a Xtal oscillator (not just Xtal) to the cart. But you'd have to mod each sound cart, and find 3.58 MHz oscillator block small enough to fit inside. Another option is to wire fixed 3.58 MHz to one cartridgeslot (and put sound carts always in that one), and leave CPU clock on the other slot (and use that slot for things like memory mappers). That way you don't have to touch individual sound carts.

The Sinfox SCC may be a problematic case: the SCC chip inside would need 3.58 MHz, but if I'm not mistaken the SD/MMC logic uses the CPU clock to synchronize Flash card <-> Z80 transfers? If so, for both to work at @normal & turbo speed, internal mod of that cartridge might be necessary - how much empty space is in that cart? Wink

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

05-11-2010, 07:51

Hello RetroTechie , thanks for reply, about:

what speed are those EPROMs?
27c256 (70ns) and 27c512 (90ns)
Sure you could replace with Flash but then you'd have to deal with different pinout as Flash EPROMs are normally 1Mbit+ and 32-pin, vs. 28-pin for 32/64KB EPROMs.
It Would be interesting to try but for now I prefer dont change the EPROM´s with FLASH type, I would have to adapt new sockets and new rewires to place new FLASH type, I'm pretty happy with the 8MHz for now, talking for playing games. Anyways i could try most faster eproms. For now I prefer to focus in the SCC Mhz problem.
For most sound carts you can fix this by adding a Xtal oscillator (not just Xtal) to the cart. But you'd have to mod each sound cart, and find 3.58 MHz oscillator block small enough to fit inside.
Ok, this will be great to do in MMC/SD Sinfox or in Megaflashrom SCC+, i think that the Megaflashrom SCC+ has no built with any oscilator on it, i dont know this for sure, i asked to the seller. Another important problem building this oscilator mods in the carts will be do that without damage case or cart label, is difficult to open some carts without damage.
Another option is to wire fixed 3.58 MHz to one cartridgeslot (and put sound carts always in that one), and leave CPU clock on the other slot (and use that slot for things like memory mappers). That way you don't have to touch individual sound carts.
I think that i could redirect fixed 3.58Mhz to Slot2 and mantain CPU clock to Slot1, placing 2 jumpers in top motherboard for future easy changes, like a new option.
The Sinfox SCC may be a problematic case: the SCC chip inside would need 3.58 MHz, but if I'm not mistaken the SD/MMC logic uses the CPU clock to synchronize Flash card <-> Z80 transfers? If so, for both to work at @normal & turbo speed, internal mod of that cartridge might be necessary - how much empty space is in that cart?
The principal idea is use MMC/SD Sinfox always conected to the MSX2 HB-F9s, and combine this with Padial soundcard in SLOT2 (no mod need because the cart has build internat crystal), sometime ago i thought the internal Sinfox install, and this will be another option to leave SLOT1 and SLOT2 conected always to Clock Out, but i reading the Sinfox manual and it seems that if the Sinfox is installed in SLOT3, roms in higher slot will not be executed, will be great place the Sinfox internally with oscilator mod; it seems that there is enough free space to install the oscilator into the Sinfox cart, will be also great do the same mod for MegaflashRom SCC+ if this needs it.

In the Padial sound card there is a 3.57954SK crystal, i´m try to follow tracks to know how this is installed...Any idea how to try the Sinfox modify internally with oscillator?

Thanks a lot again for fully info and help.
Regards.
Wink

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

06-11-2010, 06:47

Hello, this is how the Crystal Oscilator is conected to L.Padial Soundcard, i dont recognise some components and values, seeing this diagram i´m wonder if similar install like that will work with Sinfox or Megaflashrom SCC+:

img716.imageshack.us/img716/4041/cristalt.jpg

Also i checked the Sinfox tracks and the cart pin 42 CLK signal goes to SCC pin9, also the CLK signal goes to logic ic´s PIN 12 in IC12 (74HC32) and PIN2 in IC14(74LS165), probably this shows what you'd said. I think there is enough space into the cart, there is a good place for install the oscilator in right upper corner if you see the cart from component side, also there is a lot of space behind (solder side) once the cart is installed in Konami case.

About the Megaflashrom SCC+, the seller confirmed that the cartridge does not include any xtal on it, fortunately told me that he can send to me the cartridge disassembled to avoid breaking the case.

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

RetroTechie's picture

06-11-2010, 10:04

Hello ,sorry for the delay in replying, i conected the #IORQ and ROM pin22 #OE (common between roms IC11 and IC12 that also goes to S1985 pin 50) to diode inputs in Msx Super Turbo, using 10MHz. The result is that the Msx Super Turbo dont work when i switch between Turbo ON and Turbo OFF, it seems that this way disable completly the clock functions, no speed increases in Turbo ON position and now the Led does not shine or less than half of its intensity.
S1985 pin 50 is #CS01 signal, meaning: active when memory (ROM & RAM!) is read in page 0/1. Maybe that slows down software more than necessary, when you have something running in 0000-7FFFh RAM area. It also indicates an error with the 27C512: if #CS01 is used as output enable, it would mean only 32K of its 64K is readable. Read: you're missing a 16KB block of 2+ ROM (page 2), OR you could just as well have used a 27C256 there. To confirm: can you check connections for pins 1,20,22 and 27 on this 27C512? If they go straight in the socket & you didn't change anything there, that's enough for me - I know where those wires go.

Try replacing that pin 22 -> diode connection with 2 wires: from pin 20 of IC11 to a diode input, and from pin 20 of IC12 to another diode input. That way the MSX should go back to low speed only when the ROMs are used (unlike current situation).

27c256 (70ns) and 27c512 (90ns)
Should be fast enough... I think the bottleneck here really is the S1985. Too slow to enable a ROM, or (just as likely) too slow to disable it when read cycle ends. Maybe a fast Flash EPROM (55 / 60 ns?) might get you to 10 MHz, but I don't think it would help much.

And: maybe it's the amount of cartridges & everything that's on it (have you checked speeds of EPROM(s) on those carts?). You could try 10 MHz without any cartridges & see if that works (with simple typed-in BASIC program as test). If you load a game using a Flash interface, you have that interface inserted, and maybe DOS2 is enabled or a short piece of code from that interface is run during interrupts... which makes for an unreliable test.

As for adding a Xtal oscillator to the SCC Synfox interface: it'll be very hard to find an oscillator block for 3.58 MHz, that's also small enough (something like this looks nice, but it runs on 3.3V :o ). With a Xtal, you'd have to construct an oscillator yourself. That's not hard, and perhaps there's an elegant way to do it, but for me it would be very hard to explain how to do that in a cartridge I've never seen before. So I think I'll take a pass - try and find a HW expert near you to do that & tell that person only the SCC clock pin needs a fixed 3.58 MHz, everything else left unchanged. Other option: put a mute switch on it & pull SCC sound from another cartridge.

By Dhampird

Hero (585)

Dhampird's picture

07-11-2010, 02:53

Hello, about...
To confirm: can you check connections for pins 1,20,22 and 27 on this 27C512?
The only pin in 27C512 that is not conected into socket in IC12 is the PIN1 that goes in the air and conected directly to PIN5 in Z80, all other pins are connected directly to IC12 Socket.

The IC12 .rom file:
www.megaupload.com/?d=7T9SXREB
You could try 10 MHz without any cartridges & see if that works (with simple typed-in BASIC program as test)
Could you type here the test lines code to try in Basic? Thanks
- try and find a HW expert near you to do that
I´m on it, trying to find anyone that could do the oscilator mod.
Other option: put a mute switch on it & pull SCC sound from another cartridge.
Mmm, i think this could be the most simple solution but i dont know if doing that , when utility Sinfox FLASHMAN is use to load any .rom game and the Sinfox SCC is in Mute mode the .rom games will run using SCC inserted for example in SLOT2?, using the FLASHMAN tool i can load .roms but if i´m right there is no FLASHMAN options to select SLOT where the SCC is inserted when i load the .rom.
Is there any examples or documentation to try the SCC mute switch?

Probably next week the MegaFlashrom SCC+ arrives, if i´m not mistake in that cart also is built with PSG appart from SCC-I, i´ll hope find anyone that can try the oscilator for it.

Thanks a lot again.
;)

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