Wiki editing discussion

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By ren

Paragon (1217)

ren's picture

07-03-2018, 22:23

@mars: I see inconsistency in heading levels. You modified the Impaccen page to use h1 (=) as base level heading, other pages like Dawn of Time have h2 (==) as base heading.

I prefer the latter myself, as I don't like to have a lot of h1 headings. It's a bit weird a wiki page title (here) isn't a heading. On Wikipedia it *is* (h1), and the base for content headings is h2.

I believe your friend _wolf (Wink) used h2 as well (see also e.g. Sunrise Picturedisk 01).

The matter of 'looks' (if that's what you're basing your decision on) should be addressed via the stylesheet (for which we could request a change if so desired).

It's general good practice for pre-HTML5 doctypes (this site) to only have one h1 heading basically (HTML5 made working with headings more comfy, but it's still common to stick to the HTML4 practice.)

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

07-03-2018, 22:28

Yes, because I don't have yet modified all the pages. Until now, I've followed a chronological process to add pages (and update the existing pages), but with your repetitive remarks, it begins difficult to not update all the pages that were created before I started to write Wiki pages.

So, let's go!

Note: at some moment in the past, it became evident (also with gdx) that starting with h2 instead of h1 had as consequences that the titles for some pages with many sub-sub-sub parts were written in too small characters. That's the explanation!

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

07-03-2018, 22:59

Fixed for several pages (probably not all) and there's for sure more to do ... Next incoherency OR can I finally go back to my chronological as possible methode???

By ren

Paragon (1217)

ren's picture

07-03-2018, 23:20

Step 1: take it easy (and perhaps a bit more slow).
Step 2: what are you changing/editing exactly? Are you altering everything to h1 (=) headings? Have you read my story + explanation that when styling is your reason to do this, this is not the way to fix that?

Btw: possibly, I'm not sure about that, in the case the admins might update the MediaWiki software in the future, the existing page titles will be converted to H1 headings. Then surely all your current H1's are of no meaning...

By Grauw

Ascended (8317)

Grauw's picture

07-03-2018, 23:33

Wiki is full of style-markup (not 100% semantically correct) anyway, for visual purposes because the msx.org generated HTML and stylesheet isn’t exactly perfect (and I’m not counting on fixes there), I don’t think we need to care about it so much. I mean the actual title of the page is in a <div class="title">, so… yeah. The battle is lost there already Smile.

Also I nowadays prefer capitalised MSX-MUSIC, MSX-BASIC, etc. since that is what ASCII/Yamaha do (also in English documentation) and thus the official spelling. But tbh it doesn’t really matter, though it’s nice if it’s consistent (you may notice on the MAP it’s also a mix). It’s a matter of personal preference, so people just saying “I prefer this” will not result in an agreement.

Finally now that I’m speaking anyway, I want to give some credit to mars2000you and gdx for contributing so actively to the wiki over the past years, I’ve seen a lot of effort put in cleaning up pages and making things very consistent and complete (like the hardware pages, it’s very organised now), thanks for that.

Oh and you know what some wiki pages really could use? Some English grammar and spelling editing. This is to me much more valuable than getting the headings perfectly consistent Smile.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

07-03-2018, 23:29

Ren:I have the impression that you have so much time to waste that it's more important for you to find all the incoherencies and to come with the HTML Bible instead of really creating new pages. I stop here the discussion because it becomes not positive. Don't expect an answer from me in the future, I have better things to do than waste my time with you. I've given some little help, but I think I would have done better to leave you alone in the desert. Bye!

By ren

Paragon (1217)

ren's picture

07-03-2018, 23:34

Oh WOW! Too critical for you, did I hurt your feelings?

Yes, due to circumstance I have some time available and quite some of it I invested it to stuff over here the past 2 days.

You have a hard time reading, and are on your fixed-minded mission.
Looking at the edit log, I notice a < 4h gap between your last edit last night and this morning. Don't forget your sleep. Might cloud your judgement.

I give you (very) sensible feedback, but you don't seem to digest it properly / are offended by it.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5489)

mars2000you's picture

07-03-2018, 23:39

Grauw wrote:

Finally now that I’m speaking anyway, I want to give some credit to mars2000you and gdx for contributing so actively to the wiki over the past years, putting a lot of effort in cleaning up pages and making things very consistent and complete, thanks for that.

Oh and you know what some wiki pages really could use? Some English grammar and spelling editing. This is to me much more valuable than getting the headings perfectly consistent Smile.

Thanks for your appreciation of the work made by gdx and myself. And I agree with you: nor gdx nor myself have English as first language, so we know that our English is not perfect. Fortunaly another user, Rderooy, who made also much work in the Wiki, can correct our mistakes, as English is his first language. Of course help on this matter from other people with an excellent English would be really apppreciated.

By ren

Paragon (1217)

ren's picture

07-03-2018, 23:56

@Grauw: did you read my remark regarding a possible future update, and how that might effect current page titles?

Fact is lot of page (content) headings are H2's ATM, and mars2000you seems to be in a hurry to convert everything to H1 (basically due to stylistic reasons).

You must agree with me that this isn't the way, but making the appropriate changes to the stylesheet *is* (but whatever I guess..)

Grauw wrote:

Also I nowadays prefer capitalised MSX-MUSIC, MSX-BASIC, etc. since that is what ASCII/Yamaha do (also in English documentation) and thus the official spelling.

Alright, good argument.

By Grauw

Ascended (8317)

Grauw's picture

08-03-2018, 00:41

mars2000you wrote:

And I agree with you: nor gdx nor myself have English as first language, so we know that our English is not perfect. Fortunaly another user, Rderooy, who made also much work in the Wiki, can correct our mistakes, as English is his first language. Of course help on this matter from other people with an excellent English would be really apppreciated.

Of course, it’s only logical, I also do some copyediting when I see those type of issues Smile. Sorry I forgot Rderooy! I think that’s where wikis really shine, you don’t have to worry too much about perfect English because once the information is there, others can clean it up where needed.

(Btw, one may wonder why the MAP isn’t a wiki: it’s because I want to verify information before it’s put on there, to ensure the quality level. But the MRC wiki complements it nicely I think, although I do wish I got some more contributions to the MAP as well.)

ren wrote:

@Grauw: did you read my remark regarding a possible future update, and how that might effect current page titles? You must agree with me that this isn't the way, but making the appropriate changes to the stylesheet *is*.

I’m not counting on any msx.org updates, just look at the much more pressing issues on the “MRC FAQ” page and how long they are left unaddressed (note, no blame intended, just matter of fact). The semantic correctness of the site is the least of the issues. I’m just glad the site gets enough maintenance to stay online Smile.

And if that kind of update ever happens, *then* we can correct the pages. There’s no need to fight a battle over it now.

ren wrote:

Fact is lot of page (content) headings are H2's ATM, and mars2000you seems to be in a hurry to convert everything to H1(basically due to stylistic reasons).

And this is exactly why mars2000you mentioned “waving the HTML bible”. Working within the limits of the MRC wiki, they have made the choice to favour nice presentation over very unimportant details like semantic correctness. There is nothing wrong with doing things for stylistic reasons, because in the end things need to be read by a human, not a computer. I like HTML5 and semantics and responsive design and all that as much as you do, but they are a means, not an end, and as we do not control the markup generator nor the stylesheet, the end must be reached by other means.

What I was subtly trying to express earlier is that, there are people who have put in a lot of effort in the wiki content, so their opinions should be valued, and they should be treated with respect rather than suggestive phrases like “seems to be in a hurry” and “OMG, he started editing that stuff” (really?). I would suggest to first put in some effort into building up some credit by adding actual valuable content or improving grammar or structure in uncontroversial ways, before asking the wiki regulars to change their ways on details that I’m sure they’ve put thought into and made a well-informed choice on.

p.s. In case I was a bit harsh, note I also appreciate your passion and desire to improve things.

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