Wiki editing discussion

Page 49/50
42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | | 50

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

24-10-2019, 10:59

I'm pretty sure that a modified ROM (without the Turbo R checking) will work also as a 'normal' MSX-MUSIC cartridge. Otherwise I can't understand the presence of all MSX-MUSIC BASIC instructions in the ROM.

By gdx

Prophet (3035)

gdx's picture

24-10-2019, 11:31

I propose to vote because mars2000you do not want to hear anything.

Is the MSX-MIDI and the MSX-MUSIC two different things?

1/ Yes, do not mix the two in the wiki pages classification.
2/ MSX-MIDI must be in MSX-MUSIC wiki pages.
3/ It does not matter

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

24-10-2019, 11:37

The right question is

Are MSX-MIDI BASIC and MSX-MUSIC BASIC two different things?

The question is not about the hardware (it's obvious that MSX-MIDI interface is not the same as MSX-MUSIC OPLL chip), but about the BASIC extension(s).

To be complete, I must precise that when MSX-AUDIO BASIC was created, it was planned to support later MIDI. But finally, the choice was to extend MSX-MUSIC BASIC capacities.

By gdx

Prophet (3035)

gdx's picture

24-10-2019, 11:38

mars2000you wrote:

To be complete, I must precise that when MSX-AUDIO BASIC was created, it was ready to support later MIDI. But finally, the choice was to extend MSX-MUSIC BASIC capacities.

And MSX-MIDI BASIC does the same thing. Wink
MSX-AUDIO BASIC is separated from MSX-MUSIC BASIC.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

24-10-2019, 20:15

Check this translation of the MSX Datapack volume 3:

http://map.grauw.nl/resources/midi/msx-midi.php

The first sentence is very clear: "With MSX-MIDI, MIDI functionality and BASIC extensions were added to MSX-MUSIC to enable it to use MIDI."

Besides, what I've explained in other words about the mu-pack is confirmed:

"MSX-MIDI ROM (16K bytes)

In case it is built-in, it is placed in the same slot as the MSX-Music (slot 0-2, page 1).

In case it is an external cartridge, it is included on the cartridge. When the BASIC extensions are used, it is initialized to use external cartridge’s MSX-MIDI instead of the built-in MSX-MUSIC"

So, all BASIC instructions available on the cartridge are used, also for FM. The choice between FM and MIDI is made by using the appropriate parameter with the PLAY instruction.

And finally, there are not 2 different roms in the GT for that, but only 1 rom that is an improved version of MSX-MUSIC.

By gdx

Prophet (3035)

gdx's picture

25-10-2019, 02:49

It's the same for the MSX-AUDIO. It can be with MSX-MUSIC in same the ROM for MSX with internal MSX-AUDIO or in an external cartridge.
The only difference is that there never was an MSX with MSX-AUDIO internally. So it's always disabled. (You can check, extended instructions of the MSX-AUDIO are visible in MSX-MUSIC ROM with an hexa editor.)

And even if it was not the case MSX-AUDIO, MSX-MIDI and MSX-MUSIC are 3 different options from the standard. They must therefore be treated as such.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

25-10-2019, 16:44

Both point of view have their arguments. To close that, I've improved your text (and I put it here hoping that you will understand that it's a compromise):

"MSX-MIDI BASIC is composed of some extended instructions for the MSX-MUSIC soundchip (eg PLAY, CALL MUSIC) and in extra CALL MDR.

However, it is actually included in the MSX-MUSIC Rom of the Panasonic FS-A1GT and the Rom of the MU-pack includes all the MSX-MUSIC instructions, allowing it to take the hand on the MSX-MUSIC Rom of the Panasonic FS-A1ST when CALL MUSIC is entered.

For this reason, MSX-MIDI BASIC can be viewed as an alternative name to MSX-MUSIC BASIC when it concerns a MSX Turbo R with internal or external MSX-MIDI interface."

By gdx

Prophet (3035)

gdx's picture

26-10-2019, 09:54

This does not close the discussion.

When the interpreter executes an extended instruction, the system looks for it in all ROMs that have a header with the STATEMENT address on page 4000h-7FFFh. And normally, when the instruction is found, it is executed and then the processing of the instruction must allow to continue the search in the following slots in case there is another same instruction. As a result, there is no instruction from ROM that takes control of another unless the developer has decided to stop searching in the rest of the slots to found a possible next same instruction.

In fact and unlike the MSX-AUDIO, MSX-MIDI needs the MSX-MUSIC installed to add its MIDI functions. So the MSX-MUSIC must be inserted into a lower slot otherwise the MSX-MIDI does not work. I think that's the main reason why it was decided this device is for turbo R (because the MSX-MUSIC ROM is in the slot 0-2 of the Turbo R). If you change the condition to test the MSX generation (by replacing 03 by 01 at 108Ch and 1121h), Mu-Pack will work on all MSX2/2+ (provided you place a MSX-MUSIC compatible cartridge (eg FM-PAC) in a lower slot).

To verify it, you can modify the Mu-Mack ROM as indicated and put break-point at STATEMENT addresses of the two ROMs. When you execute _MUSIC both addresses are called.

Anyway, these are technical details. All this does not affect the fact that the MSX-AUDIO, MSX-MIDI and MSX-MUSIC are 3 different options from the standard, and even if there are two that depend a lot or less on the MSX-MUSIC. I do not see why you are so opposed to the creation of the MSX-MIDI category.

Another thing without much report: MSX-AUDIO and MSX-AUDIO drivers are poorly designed. Theoretically is should work at the same time as the MSX-MUSIC but in fact this is not the case. There is a conflict with both drivers. The installation seems to be going badly. CALL MUSIC does not seem to take into account the MSX-AUDIO driver and vice versa. If anyone could fix that, that would be great. (Maybe someone has already done it?)

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5512)

mars2000you's picture

26-10-2019, 14:13

Well, now the MSX-MIDI BASIC category exists and will stay, but it was important for me to precise that it can be viewed as an improved version of MSX-MUSIC BASIC for specific configurations.

It could have been an improved version of MSX-AUDIO BASIC. If you check this official doc, you will notice that the MML parameter z is included for PLAY : http://map.grauw.nl/resources/datapack/Vol2-4.2MSX-AUDIOBASI...

Apart from the technical side (that is very interesting), the main problem that justifies for me an apart page for MSX-MIDI BASIC is the history of all that. If full MIDI support had already been included in the MSX-AUDIO cartridge, then we would not have this discussion, we would speak only of MSX-AUDIO BASIC. The same can be said for the FM-PAC cartridge and we would speak only of MSX-MUSIC BASIC.

Apparently, the discussion between MSX companies was not easy to define a MIDI norm for MSX. Take for example the Philips Music Module and add it the missing MSX-AUDIO BIOS/BASIC ... it has even a full MIDI interface ..... but it's not compatible with the MSX-MIDI norm defined later by Panasonic! (and besides, the included Philips firmware does not use all the capacities of the MIDI interface).

This chaotic history of MIDI support on MSX justifies this apart page because end-users can find the term MSX-MIDI BASIC in official docs. Without background knowledge, they will indeed not make easily the link with MSX-MUSIC BASIC.

By gdx

Prophet (3035)

gdx's picture

26-10-2019, 18:13

mars2000you, do not remove what I added in the μ.Pack wiki, it is what is indicated on the back of μ.Pack box.
https://images.generation-msx.nl/cover/bc3bbff3.jpg

Page 49/50
42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | | 50