openMSX "Accuracy"

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By Manuel

Ascended (14725)

Manuel's picture

30-10-2018, 00:29

ANyway, I also remember Fear of an FM Planet. It was one of the first MSX2 demos I saw and I was very impressed with it. Great to see you again! I think I even met you in Tilburg in 1993 or so, is that possible?

By FiXato

Scribe (1502)

FiXato's picture

31-10-2018, 02:35

Bengalack wrote:

One of the few in Norway, I think :-)

If you're still in Sandefjord, and want to rescue an MSX, there's someone there who keeps trying to sell their Sony Hit Bit HP75P, to no avail apparently, at it keeps popping up. ;)

Hilsen fra en Nederlender som bor opp nord i Bodø. ;)

By Algorythms

Champion (282)

Algorythms's picture

01-11-2018, 00:17

NYYRIKKI wrote:

The whole Norway "MSX scene" has been quite a mystery to me ever since. I don't believe MSX2 computers have been sold there and yet there was this kind of stuff coming out in "early days" (pretty much meaning time before Internet was an affordable hobby)... I hope you could light up this mystery to me a bit. How big was the user base? You also probably have some insight information about the copy parties etc. ? Was the MSX2 scene built around home upgraded SVI-738's or did you import some Phillips machines from Netherlands?

I'll let him answer for himself, because I do believe he was a part of the MSX scene earlier than me, but from my experience there was a lot of upgraded SVI-738 X'Press computers. I did not see many Philips MSX'es, but quite a few Sony and Spectravideo MSX'es to begin with.
A shop called Spaceworld sold lots of SVI-738's priced down from 5995,- NOK to 995,- NOK, which at that time I believe would be 499 GBP to 83 GBP, for an easily expandable MSX (seems it was really designed to be an MSX 2 as it had the v9938 VDP, space for 128kb vram etc. on the print)
Upgrading was made even easier by the club "MSX Brugerklubben", which was a Danish/Swedish/Norwegian club which published a paper magazine called Syntax, later to become a floppy disc magazine.

There were annual meetings in Norway where members from Sweden and Denmark came and shared news and knowledge, i.e. Henrik Gilvad (the maker of i.e. Moonsound and GFX-9000) from Denmark who even did upgrade 738 MSX 1's to MSX 2, MSX 2+ etc. on site. Tore Brønnum and Tor Spigseth were also prominent Norwegian members of the club with hardware knowledge. Juan Salas also impressed us with new MSX Paint releases on many of the meetings. Northwind demos were also a hit, as well as software Henrik imported from The Netherlands and Japan and sold at the meetings.

My personal MSX story started with me buying a used Canon V-20 after my Oric-1 broke down. My best friends father then bought a 738, and I really liked the fact that it had a floppy drive. I went to drool at one at at Spaceworld one time and it ended up with me swapping my V-20 for an employee's 738 because he wanted better sound while playing Nemesis 2 with SCC. There was a design flaw in the 738's sound mixer which I then easily fixed by changing a resistor with the help of the knowledge from the MSX user club.
Then Henrik upgraded the machine to MSX 2 with 128kb RAM, then later with internal FM-pac, MSX 2+ upgrade and finally 1MB SIMM ram at different meetings. I then later bought a Panasonic A1GT Turbo R from a Swedish member. Henrik upgraded it with 1MB SIMM ram. I learned a lot from Henrik and using his info I then started upgrading my friends 738's myself.

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5026)

NYYRIKKI's picture

01-11-2018, 23:58

Algorythms wrote:

I did not see many Philips MSX'es, but quite a few Sony and Spectravideo MSX'es to begin with.

In Finland there were some Sony MSX2 computers sold as well for professional use (for video texting, laser disk and U-matic stuff) but these were not marketed for hobbyists. Maybe there was similar story in Norway as well(?)

Quote:

There were annual meetings in Norway where members from Sweden and Denmark came and shared news and knowledge

Do you remember what years we are talking about? Any guess about amount of visitors / party? I've always wondered a bit about how many users there were in Sweden and Norway. I'm well aware that many computers were sold there as well, but quite limited amount of information has been shared over the country borders. I believe one of the reasons is that back on those days I was generally pretty much isolated from rest of the MSX users around even in Finland. I did know few local MSX users, but that was about it. I believe I started to collect contacts only after pretty much all my MSX friends had moved to other systems already. Smile

Quote:

Juan Salas also impressed us with new MSX Paint releases on many of the meetings.

Oh, right... brings back memories. Smile MSX Paint had quite impressive amount of features, but it was not bug free and I remember it was pretty damn slow and kept loading all the time. I guess I should have had my tR & SD-card back then. :9

Quote:

Then Henrik upgraded the machine to MSX 2 with 128kb RAM, then later with internal FM-pac, MSX 2+ upgrade and finally 1MB SIMM ram at different meetings. I then later bought a Panasonic A1GT Turbo R from a Swedish member. Henrik upgraded it with 1MB SIMM ram. I learned a lot from Henrik and using his info I then started upgrading my friends 738's myself.

You don't happen to have instructions of how to do that SIMM-upgrade to 738? "How to upgrade SVI-738 memory?" seems to be relatively often asked question and the discussion always end up to pointing to generic MSX memory mapper circuits. It seems to me that HG's wisdom about this subject has been lost in time. I've had an opportunity to take a peek inside 738 that Henrik had upgraded himself (later version with SIMM) and I only remember that I was quite surprised how simple the memory upgrade looked like. I guess there are quite a lot of shortcuts that one can make while upgrading memory internally instead of using just signals available in cartridge slot.

By Algorythms

Champion (282)

Algorythms's picture

02-11-2018, 08:47

NYYRIKKI wrote:

Do you remember what years we are talking about? Any guess about amount of visitors / party?

I don't know when it started, but I think I was there from around ´93 to ´96 or ´97 when they stopped.

Quote:

You don't happen to have instructions of how to do that SIMM-upgrade to 738? "How to upgrade SVI-738 memory?" seems to be relatively often asked question and the discussion always end up to pointing to generic MSX memory mapper circuits. It seems to me that HG's wisdom about this subject has been lost in time.

Sorry, I don't. But I sold one of my 738's to HansO, and I believe it had the HG memory mapper installed. As I recall it was a homemade print with 6 or 8 IC's, wiresolded to the simm. I did send some photos of it to mtn here on the forum back in 2017, maybe he still has the photos.

By TomH

Master (239)

TomH's picture

05-11-2018, 19:27

Sorry, slight thread regression, but I've taken the opportunity to enquire further and at least one prolific editor of the emulation wiki believes that the correct ordering for tables involves ordering by 'accuracy' as a secondary key, treating 'cycle' as the highest.

Which is nonsense, obviously, but am I safe to assume that to the extent that 'cycle accuracy' means anything, OpenMSX is as much cycle accurate as anything could be?

It'd be nice to give it a legitimate reason to top that table, given that BlueMSX is no longer maintained and doesn't do as much in any case.

By Grauw

Enlighted (7450)

Grauw's picture

05-11-2018, 21:34

OpenMSX is cycle accurate for both the CPU and the VDP, including the access timing of the latter. Most of the research available on V9938/58 timing has come from the openMSX team. For that reason alone, openMSX should be considered the king of MSX emulation accuracy. Sound chips are cycle accurate as well I reckon, though the effect of writing too fast to their registers aren’t emulated.

By Manuel

Ascended (14725)

Manuel's picture

05-11-2018, 21:51

Looks like there have been many edits to that wiki page, changing things back and forth...

By TomH

Master (239)

TomH's picture

06-11-2018, 15:44

Yeah, sorry, my underlying belief is fairly simple: if a random person came up to you and asked "which MSX emulator should I consider first?" then the answer would be OpenMSX. So it should be at the top of the table. Determining whether it matches the criteria that would allow it to be there is therefore a proper thing to do.

The this-way and that-way edits mostly result from the criteria being somewhat opaque. Though I also chucked in the MSX 1/2/2+/Turbo R columns the better to find a tick list way to differentiate lesser emulators such as my own. The editors there seem to love comparing things by tick lists.

There seems to be nothing that can be done about the entirely-nebulous 'recommended' column, but luckily that's already ticked. Phew!

EDIT: I've upped openMSX to "cycle" accuracy per the cargo cult-ish perception of that term over on that Wiki, elevating it above anything actually descriptive, and the confirmation above that the emulator fits the criteria. I've also moved it to the top as I think it fits the Wiki's rules for being at the top. Maybe we'll find out that it doesn't, but I don't intend to get into an edit war about it. You can't fix everything on the internet, it's not a big deal.

By Manuel

Ascended (14725)

Manuel's picture

06-11-2018, 19:09

Hahaha... well anyway, I don't know exactly what they mean with these terms, but I don't think openMSX is less accurate than blueMSX and that was suggested by the qualification in that accuracy table. So, if someone judges blueMSX as cycle accurate, he should definitely also put that qualification to openMSX. (Which is written with a lower case o, by the way ;-)

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