Why not a ".TSX" Format for MSX Tapes???

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By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3068)

sd_snatcher's picture

15-06-2014, 17:10

Plz don't get me wrong, I'm not trolling or trying to spur controversies. But what MSX tape games don't have disk versions already? I ask because I would like to take a peek at them.

By DrWh0

Paladin (767)

DrWh0's picture

15-06-2014, 17:43

Please sd_snatcher don´t misunderstand me I am not trying to mess around with anyone. It´s not my intention being rude nor aggresive with anyone who doesn´t share my opinion, I wrote my previous message as a sample of wav´s deficiencies.

As I said before we like to have a *real* preservation format, in order to preserve an untouched and functional version of the original digital work of the author´s, for playing pirated games with wonderful pirate logos we have a lot of modified disks pirate compilations.

Is like I had the original egyptian "Book of the deads" and I choose to chop in pieces (like in real life ocurred) and I use modern art to "improve" old hieroglyphs with 3d effects, brilliants effects, etc..

Do we have a copy of the "book", yes, but we have a modified one not a 100% identical copy, the very same can be applied if we like black & white photocopy of the original or a translated one.

The rest of the systems are converging in a true preservation universal format using tzx as basis with a lot of advantages above usual formats used by us.

Preservation is not an excuse for playing pirated games is a way to preserve original´s authors work.

We should try to converge in a centralized and perfect dump list in order to preserve all history of our system.

That´s the idea we are looking to realize.

Dumping tapes/disks/roms cost us a lot of money/risk/time in order to give the people free access to old gems (or not) of digital work.

AlesteDX and me for example have THOUSANDS of original media (even M.I.A.S.), and we would not like to dump media in a such limited format.

If people indeed loved MSX would appreciate a true preservation effort of real people in MSX community

By hit9918

Prophet (2867)

hit9918's picture

15-06-2014, 17:48

@sd_snatcher,
a "9600Hz wav" is 9600hz DAC sample rate. So this already is like a 4800Hz tone.

the wav samples directly corespond to PPI levels,
a 1 bit is DOWN UP DOWN UP
a 0 bit is DOWN DOWN UP UP
can't get it any smaller than that. if one wants to keep compatible with this sheme the bios is using.

By hit9918

Prophet (2867)

hit9918's picture

15-06-2014, 17:58

@DrWho, it is not clear what you want.

On the one hand, it sounds like you want things "original".
On the other hand, it sounds like you dont like the original.
Because that "limited format" wav does nicely original the same as the limited casette.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3068)

sd_snatcher's picture

15-06-2014, 18:16

@hit9918

Ok, thanks for the explanation. Smile

By DrWh0

Paladin (767)

DrWh0's picture

15-06-2014, 19:43

@hit9918, the only thing we are complaining is about the lack of confiability of WAV format in terms of conservation, storing, certifying, dumping, repairing, etc... for example, how can you 100% certify that a game is correctly dumped with wav? (don´t say me that a md5 in a file cannot be falsified or be equal to another thing), also many times the original tape is so old that need to be re-read a few times, tzx file format gives us chances to greatly locate errors and fix them quickly and check the dump.

If the game "seems" to work it doesn´t mean that the "dump" is perfect, sometimes you can have flipped bytes and game does not verify its own data blocks and wav dumping method does not allow to see the error, with a tzx style format you can see where can be the errors, also some protections methods rely on disguisying "as noise", also wav is very bad for restoring broken parts.

For example I have a very rare and original version of laser squad in spanish version that relies on a non standard with a copy protection loader very difficult to copy , cas tools for msx can´t dump it properly and I cannot verify which block is broken on PC, also sometimes you can have various copies of the game broken, but you can repair it easily with appropiate tools, dumping wav makes very difficult to distinguish noise/protection/real custom data, and it is very time consuming process, it seems that most of you thinks in terms of standard bload/load/cload things are not so easy.

For example if you look this page you can see very interesting data about future specification in TZX style format:

That´s the reason why there are so many "broken dumps", "crap" and "mislabeled" dumps on tosec.

I hope you can see my point

By hit9918

Prophet (2867)

hit9918's picture

15-06-2014, 20:12

I see the point of incorrect dumps.
They dont happen with the "low hz wav" which is a clear bitstream, just encoded in wav.
Maybe should give it another name, a nice one would be "TTL wav" Smile
Nothing but the 0 / 1 bit state of the casette pin in there, clearly representing the information.

But I start to wonder. Those sophisticated ZX tools, dont they run on PC, dont they have export of wav.
They could need export/import of TTL wav Smile For comparisons need to know the MSX byte vs header tweet, no big thing.

By Grauw

Ascended (8456)

Grauw's picture

15-06-2014, 22:17

DrWh0 wrote:

AlesteDX and me for example have THOUSANDS of original media (even M.I.A.S.), and we would not like to dump media in a such limited format.

If people indeed loved MSX would appreciate a true preservation effort of real people in MSX community

Ok. Right now, it seems like some kind of “blackmail”. I don’t really mean it harshly, but it is sort of what you’re doing by saying you have an intention to dump thousands of games but do not want to do so until someone else creates a format to your bidding. And if nobody cares to do so because they think a perfectly fine format already exists, they do not “truly love MSX” or “do not appreciate your effort”?

I think you should show your intent by starting a project to dump games in WAV. It is the first step for conversion to TZX anyway, right? Then you can say “we have thousands of WAV dumps and need some help getting it cleaned up and checked” rather than “we have thousands of theoretical work that we may or may not actually do”. A lot more compelling that way, then I bet someone will step up to assist with tooling to check and improve the quality of the dumps. Maybe a new file format will be born from it, maybe not.

So, I say start a big “MSX TAPE GAME PRESERVATION PROJECT” and see where it takes you! Smile

By bore

Expert (115)

bore's picture

15-06-2014, 22:53

Can someone tell me how one is supposed to store the information about noise/analog values in the TZX format? I have tried to figure out how one is supposed to do that but all blocks appears to have binary data only.

By Manuel

Ascended (15756)

Manuel's picture

19-06-2014, 18:09

bore: why is that relevant? It's not seen by the MSX...

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