A dream or a hype ?

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By poke-1,170

Paragon (1769)

poke-1,170's picture

21-06-2005, 02:21

Hmmm yeah the revival...well,as anyone must have noticed the last couple of years,retro consoles are hot,the music is hot, a lot of popmusicians have cashed in on it ( in holland,bastian,sampling jeroen tel's "rubicon", beercommercials use the aesthetic (heineken), and every moron out there wears an atari t-shirt...)
it's been going on for quite some years now,at least it started in the underground 7 years ago or so...And still things are moving slowly...the c64 still hasn't been properly remanufactured (tulip had it for a while,but still nothing well marketed is coming from it)..And atari has released their 2600 with built in games,for about 40 euros or so I think...go to any fleamarket to pick one up for 10 bucks,including shitloads of games..so why bother buying one? perhaps the same could be said for the msx, they're dirt cheap here in Holland.
Yet I think MSX could be on the forefront of this whole revival thing...the new atari console is only a gamemachine,not expandable and just a gimmick. I don't know for what specific market it will be, it should appeal to a young generation perhaps, or people in their mid 20's and 30's (allthough I think if you'd realy want an msx,you might as well pick one up from a fleamarket or buy one on ebay.For considerably less then the 1 chip msx I suppose too.)...I think it's rather pricey imho,for a machine that you can buy as an original for almost nothing...And I don't suppose a young audience is realy waiting to start programming on an old 8 bit machine,unless for educational purposes...but then again,processors nowadays are not 8 bit anyway...I suppose if ASCII does their promotion well, and won't just aim it at the geeks and drop the price,it might work....I'd still be proud to see it happen though

By Samor

Prophet (2148)

Samor's picture

21-06-2005, 08:13


it's been going on for quite some years now,at least it started in the underground 7 years ago or so...And still things are moving slowly...the c64 still hasn't been properly remanufactured (tulip had it for a while,but still nothing well marketed is coming from it)..

Tulip sold it to others, regardless, after a delay they released a retro-joystick, similar to the atari ones; only in the US so far, but one can order it anyways, however, a PAL revision is AFAIK still planned/in development. While it's just a joystick in appearance, some people hacked it and had quite decent results (http://www.orrville.net/dtvhacking/)


And atari has released their 2600 with built in games,for about 40 euros or so I think...go to any fleamarket to pick one up for 10 bucks,including shitloads of games..so why bother buying one? perhaps the same could be said for the msx, they're dirt cheap here in Holland.

I think the stick you're mentioning is the one from http://www.jakkstvgames.com ; as the site shows they released several of those sticks, amongst them an atari one. They're 30 euros btw... not that they're ultra-cheap with that either, though, but they're quite fun.


Yet I think MSX could be on the forefront of this whole revival thing...the new atari console is only a gamemachine,not expandable and just a gimmick. I don't know for what specific market it will be, it should appeal to a young generation perhaps, or people in their mid 20's and 30's (allthough I think if you'd realy want an msx,you might as well pick one up from a fleamarket or buy one on ebay.For considerably less then the 1 chip msx I suppose too.)...I think it's rather pricey imho,for a machine that you can buy as an original for almost nothing...

It quite depends on WHERE you're looking though, and what you want that MSX to be able to do.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni's picture

21-06-2005, 12:44

...And I don't suppose a young audience is realy waiting to start programming on an old 8 bit machine,unless for educational purposes...but then again,processors nowadays are not 8 bit anyway...

Why, do you think, are people still interested in oldtimer cars from lots of decades ago?

To start programming, an 8 bit machine is quite well! If you want to learn assembler or mc,
such a machine is better than using a PC. There will be only very few people writing mc programs for Pentium. They use high level langueages, of course.

The basic principles are the same, regardless of the computer! So still using MSX or other
homecomputers for to start programming isn't weird. A child learns driving car by first playing
with a model car! Than it gets a bike, ... and after several years, if it is 18 years old, it can
start with a driving licence!

But (still) using an 8 bit system, i.e. a homecomputer, may also have other reasons: E.g. one wants to use another system at home, not the one used at work. Homecomputers like MSX have very short startup times, so why waiting about five minutes for windows to come up, just to wirte down some text, if MSX is available in about a few seconds? Small things are beloved by many people, they collect models of lots of stuff. They collect them because small things are nice. They collect them because this stuff is rare, looks good, remindes them on good old days or has some historical value. All that is the case with MSX or other homecomputers. Or just because such things work, just like the big ones. And, -- remember -- also the big ones started small! These are the points the MSX rivival should be hooked on!

I rather like to write texts important to me on MSX than on PC!

You needn't have a super text editor with hundereds of features you never use, you just need to have e.g. Turbo Pascal editor. This sufficed lots of years ago, why not today? So if you e.g. write poems or stories for a fantasy world invented by your own, why not doing that on a computer system with more fantasy in it than a computer normally used in an office? With the MSX revival, it should be possible that this is taken into account! But unfortunately, many of the homecomputer users are just sticked to gaming and maybe on starting to learn programming, looking on the revival and related things only out of this aspect. There're lots of more aspects! We must have the fantasy and the courage to discover and to realize it, maybe together with MSX Association!

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1769)

poke-1,170's picture

21-06-2005, 14:40

you're right...but you can have that same msx for 10 euros too...and msx 2 with diskdrive for 25 (or so).
still,I want to run photoshop...after fx etc...pretty common programs...word,excell...And for those who like to start programming,
I think many people will do something like c++ or visual basic or what have you not...simply because that is today's standard.
And those people who like gaming (kids) probably will buy a psp2, or the nintendo DS.
Apart from that,if it's going to be about retrogaming,I think the majority of focus is on consoles from sega and nintendo (NES,superfamicom,sega genesis etc),it's mainly the games that caused the revival,and people want no fuss,they want to stick a cartridge in and enjoy the nostalgia...
See,I like msx computers too,the reason I don't buy a 1 chip is it's way too expensive...for an msx 1/2... I have enough msx2's already anyway,
so why pay over 100 euros for something that you can buy for a lot less? I can't afford it honnestly Sad Cheaper price around 40 euros seems a less higher treshold for people to step into it...would you seriously spend that much cash as a newcomer for an 8 bit computer (well,theoretically then) that you're not familiar with?

To samor: no i meant the atari flashback http://www.atari.com/us/games/atari_flashback/7800

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1769)

poke-1,170's picture

21-06-2005, 14:46

I mean,don't get me wrong,great computer...but for that money (well,a bit more then) you could buy the psp2 and run an emu on it.
portable msx gaming...wahey !

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

21-06-2005, 15:03

As Nishi already stated in his MSX World 2005 lecture, the One Chip MSX is substantially different from an ordinary MSX1 or MSX2, the C64DTV or Atari Flashback, or even a Nintendo DS or Sony PSP, for that matter. The end-user of a commercially produced piece of hardware gets the power to adjust the functionality of that hardware to his or her own likings.

I personally am very excited about this FPGA-approach, even though it does come with a higher price tag. Surely the first One Chip MSX will have its limitations, but some minor improvements already mentioned in the MRC forums before (Direct access to VRAM, more colors, higher resolutions, reduce sprite limitations, higher CPU speed, ...) can already greatly enhance the capabilities of the One Chip MSX, and will most likely not consume too many gates in the FPGA chip. Of course, the next generation One Chip MSX Mr. Nishi proposed looks a lot more interesting (with boosted Z80/R800 and a new MSX CPU, internet capabilities, and a way faster FPGA core with lots and lots more gates), but I do think the first ('proof of concent') One Chip MSX will already have more than enough 'bang for your bucks'.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9971)

wolf_'s picture

21-06-2005, 15:09

Will that 2nd 1cm (with the boosted z80/r800) be made anyway, when the first 1cm fails to become a succes?

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

21-06-2005, 15:16

Of course that is questionable. As has been stated on the MRC many, many times before: the entire MSX Revival is based on taking one step at a time, with as little risks as possible. Success of the first One Chip MSX would make for a nice basis for future One Chip MSX computers, whilst complete failure would make that second step quite a bit more difficult. As the One Chip MSX isn't the sole source of income for MSXA, I assume the two aren't directly related either. However, even though reaching that big 5k is going to be quite a challenge, I think the amount of pre-orders that already have been received exclude the 'total failure'-option. I think that if there are less than 5000 pre-orders after 3 months, all parties involved are at least willing to look for different options to make things work (e.g. extend the pre-order period, or produce less One Chip MSX computers, or...). However, the launch of pre-orders in Bazix (patience, patience Tongue), announcements of final specs, casings and pricing and attention for the One Chip MSX in the media yet to come can still give the pre-orders quite a boost, just as they did with the MSX GameReaders.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni's picture

21-06-2005, 15:27

you're right...but you can have that same msx for 10 euros too...and msx 2 with diskdrive for 25 (or so).
Maybe you can buy it for 10 to 25 euros or so, but how long will it work? I need a disk drive, but can I get it by ebay? And if so, how long will it work?

still,I want to run photoshop...after fx etc...pretty common programs...word,excell...
If you want to run that, use a PC! That's this kind of stuff PC is made for!

And for those who like to start programming, I think many people will do something like c++ or visual basic or what have you not...simply because that is today's standard.

These two languages aren't good to start with! People who probably start today with it will recognize, that if they'll become skilled programmers, most likely totally different programming languages will be en vogue, e.g. Haskell or Python! Or something we don't even think of today! So better to start with classical languages, e.g. Pascal, where you get the basic programming knowledge and skills. You first must experience the disadvantages of BASIC to appreciate the benefits of Pascal. And so it is with the other languages! Thats what
I meant with my driving licence comparison.

And those people who like gaming (kids) probably will buy a psp2, or the nintendo DS.
If a new advanced MSX would be on the market, why shouldn't they buy it, anyway? It's a question of marketing, of supporting computer clubs, of the device's being nice, etc.

Apart from that,if it's going to be about retrogaming,I think the majority of focus is on consoles from sega and nintendo (NES,superfamicom,sega genesis etc),it's mainly the games that caused the revival,and people want no fuss,they want to stick a cartridge in and enjoy the nostalgia...
What do you mean by fuss? I looked up the german translation, but how can you know if a revived homecomputer system is fuss? Don't mentally stick on gaming! And even if it's mainly the games, that caused the revival, nobody forbids you to try to make more out of the revival than just retrogaming!

See,I like msx computers too,the reason I don't buy a 1 chip is it's way too expensive...for an msx 1/2... I have enough msx2's already anyway,
so why pay over 100 euros for something that you can buy for a lot less?

As stated earlier, existing MSX computers will get defective sometime.

I can't afford it honnestly Sad
I understand that. You need not buy it as far as it comes to market, maybe the OCM is just the first step, and if it'll be a success, there'll be a sophisticated and maybe cheeper version.

Cheaper price around 40 euros seems a less higher treshold for people to step into it...would you seriously spend that much cash as a newcomer for an 8 bit computer (well,theoretically then) that you're not familiar with?
Many of us once bought an MSX for a price more than 40 euros (in another currency, of course) without knowing about MSX or computer at all. Don't be so pessimistic. Be glad that there'll be new MSX hardware on the market soon, if there're enough orders.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9971)

wolf_'s picture

21-06-2005, 15:27

Everyone I spoke about the 1cm, says the specs are too small (and that's also my own opinion). They feel like buying an expensive MSX1 (and we all *have* that already!) with not that many gates left for radical new features. I'm very sure the sales would be seriously higher if there would be a MAJOR fpga-boost in the 1cm, and I mean MAJOR! If I was MSXA I'd skip the current model and go for that boosted 1cm. Ok, be it some inches more expensive. But what's relativily more expensive? A boosted MSX1 for price X, or a glorious MSX3 for price X*1.5?

(all imho/2ct naturally)

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