rights.

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By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

09-07-2004, 21:11

Emulation is still a grey area. There is not enough jurisprudence to declare emulation of computer systems legal or illegal yet.
Read and understand.

As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

Sonic_aka_T's picture

10-07-2004, 01:04

This is yet another one of your bullshit posts I've been laughing my head off about.
First of all, I have asked you time after time to consider the way you react to posts. Use you're knowledge in a constructive manner, and don't try to insult people every time you are right or think you are.

Second, if you would spend less time laughing your head off and more time thinking or looking things up on the internet you would have found out that I am actually right on this one.

Copyright works for chips in the exact same manner as it works for software. You can copyright the code of your program, you cannot prohibit others to make a program that does exactly the same thing as your program does if it uses different code. The same goes for chips.

Why do you think virtually every much-used IC out there has at least 3 or 4 different pin-compatible and interexchangeable counterparts from all the other manufacturers? Sure, it says copyright, since you're automatically the copyright owner upon making something, but what is it worth? Nothing, unless people are going to make a photocopy of your silicon...

If MSX was existing technology, why do most of the MSX chips have (c) ASCII Corp. on them? ASCII helped design most of the chips (V9938, R800, Y8950, the MSX-ENGINE's etc).
Because you are automatically the copyright owner of everything you 'write'. You don't need to do anything to earn copyright, except perhaps claim it before it becomes publicly available. This does not protect the methods and unique ideas used to obtain the effect though. This can only be done by means of a patent.

Existing technology would be true for MSX1, but definitely not for MSX2 and up.
I was talking about the original MSX tho, which was pretty much a collection of generic components. Even for the MSX2 the same was applicable by large, except perhaps the V9938 and the odd Engine or FDC.

Making a 'chip' by means of FPGA that will serve the same purpose as the V9938 is in no manner illegal. You could still get sued by Yamaha, but eventually you'll win. Unless ofcourse Yamaha actually patented their V9938. I don't think they did though, and I can hardly think of any new or revolutionary technique used in the V9938 that is patentable.

This is what fly asked, and the answer is just that. As long as you don't copy any of the chips and don't use the BIOS, yes, you can make an MSX-compatible machine. Maybe that's why I'm typing this on a PC that doesn't have the letters IBM on the case. While you were busy laughing your head off other people might have realised that they have a PC clone at home...

So yes fly, it would indeed be possible to make an MSX clone. It would ofcourse be required to make a non-copyrighted set of MSX compatible ROMs and we would all have to look for nice MSX stickers to place on the case. Tongue

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

Sonic_aka_T's picture

10-07-2004, 01:08

Read and understand.
Practice what you preach my friend.

As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.
Don't you mean copyright Guyver?

By mth

Champion (484)

mth's picture

10-07-2004, 02:21

Copyright: you get this automatically if you make something. Copyright notices you see everywhere are useful so that someone else cannot claim he did not know about your copyright if you sue him, but are not required for the copyright itself. For MSX, copyrights are relevant for the system ROMs. I read that Microsoft owns those copyrights and MSX Association licensed them for use in Japan. There are copyrights on the chips as well, but those are mostly irrelevant as nobody is trying to make an exact copy of a chip; they're only trying to get the same functionality.

Trademark: a word or graphic you use to sell something. Can be registered to give you a better position in court, but this is not required. ASCII registered the MSX trademark in the early 80's. MSX Association reportedly had the registration moved to their name, although the last time I checked the online trademark database it was still registered to ASCII (maybe slow bureaucracy?). Trademarks become invalid if you stop using them or if you let others use them outside your control. That's why I think the MSX trademark has become invalid, no matter who has the registration for it. We've had this discussion before, so if you want more details, look in the forum archives.

Patent: if you invent something that didn't exist before, you can protect it with a patent. Unlike a copyright, a patent applies to any implementation of an idea. I don't know of any patents on technology found in MSX.

Conclusion: as far as I can see, it is completely legal to build an MSX as long as you find a replacement for the copyrighted system ROMs. For example, in openMSX we use C-BIOS as the default system ROMs.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

10-07-2004, 13:17

First of all, I have asked you time after time to consider the way you react to posts. Use you're knowledge in a constructive manner, and don't try to insult people every time you are right or think you are.
First of all, you didn't.
Second, you've posted time and time again bullshit information as being fact. (Like Dante 2 not scrolling, etc etc etc) It makes you look even more stupid than your appearance already does.
And finally, you made this yourself. I have no more patience with you, with your harassing tactics and real-life violation of my personal space.

Second, if you would spend less time laughing your head off and more time thinking or looking things up on the internet you would have found out that I am actually right on this one.
You are comparing apples and oranges. I have claimed nothing about copyrights for chips, only about patents on the technology.

Because you are automatically the copyright owner of everything you 'write'. You don't need to do anything to earn copyright, except perhaps claim it before it becomes publicly available.
Again, you are wrong. This is only how it works in HOLLAND. In countries like the USA, you are REQUIRED to state the copyright owner AND date, otherwise your work is automatically public domain.
Furthermore you can register your copyright at the copyright office, for additional protection.

I was talking about the original MSX tho, which was pretty much a collection of generic components. Even for the MSX2 the same was applicable by large, except perhaps the V9938 and the odd Engine or FDC.
Oh, you mean all the glue transistors? Because next to a V9938 and the Engine and FDC, there's just some connectors and ROMs in there that are worth mentioning. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is what fly asked, and the answer is just that. As long as you don't copy any of the chips and don't use the BIOS, yes, you can make an MSX-compatible machine.
The question was about emulation, and emulation has not been deemed legal nor illegal by any court. It's a GRAY AREA.
It's that simple!

Maybe that's why I'm typing this on a PC that doesn't have the letters IBM on the case. While you were busy laughing your head off other people might have realised that they have a PC clone at home...
Again, apples and oranges. Go back to the playground and build a sand-castle please.

As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.

Don't you mean copyright Guyver?
Quit putting words in my mouth!!!

Flyguille asked "can be patented the way to connect a general purpose chip like the PPI ?" and I replied "As for questions about general patentability of things or concepts, consult a patent lawyer.".
How could I POSSIBLY mean 'copyright'?! Flyguille, in his original message also, asked only about patents.

READ AND UNDERSTAND, and don't be a smartass.

The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW what patents ASCII Corp. had, YOU DON'T KNOW what patents Yamaha has, or Toshiba, or any of the other MSX hardware designers.
So until you studied patent law, and researched which of their patents relate to MSX, THEN you can make a claim about it. And not a minute sooner.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

10-07-2004, 13:44

That said, MSX Association makes no problem of emulators (but they can't use the MSX logo). Neither does MSX Association say you can't build MSX compatible devices or complete MSX systems, nor does it say you can't reverse engineer MSX chips (for FPGA or emulation).

So to answer your original question, flyguille. What patents MSX Assoc. has is unknown, but also irrelevant. (Except for the system ROMs, because they're -at least partially- copyrighted by Microsoft)

Afterall, MSX Assoc. is not an evil empire, it wants the same things we want: more MSX around the world! Smile

By mth

Champion (484)

mth's picture

10-07-2004, 14:29

Again, you are wrong. This is only how it works in HOLLAND. In countries like the USA, you are REQUIRED to state the copyright owner AND date, otherwise your work is automatically public domain.

This was true once, but nowadays copyright is automatically awarded, also in the USA.
(more info)

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

10-07-2004, 14:47

Ah, interesting!
It seems a lot of ppl on the internet are not aware of this change, as I've read numerous times the copyright notice is required.

Still, the argument pertaining to copyrights on chips made by Sonic_aka_T is still besides the point, as the copyright notice clearly shows the MSX(2 and up) technology was co-authored by ASCII corp, and not consisting purely of existing technologies.

By ro

Guardian (4118)

ro's picture

10-07-2004, 15:53

{moderated by Bart}

Ro, please use the "moderator alert" button next time.

By flyguille

Prophet (3029)

flyguille's picture

10-07-2004, 17:52

please guys, this forum topic is for discussion about copyrights/patents of MSX. Overall what work can be done full-legally.

I'm wondered of what exactly patents got ASCII about MSX, if a FPGA MSX can be done legally (without the ROMS ofcourse).

Or how we can to know what kind of pattents got ASCII.

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