Simply impressed!

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By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5601)

JohnHassink's picture

19-08-2011, 20:26

@ ARTRAG
Yes it does!

@ PingPong
Try it, it looks pretty awesome!

By hit9918

Prophet (2921)

hit9918's picture

19-08-2011, 20:37


sw sprites, by contrast are more flexible. (assuming a decent hw acceleration).

@PingPong, I understand your arguments, e.g. with blitter you can have all DMA concentrated on one scanline, all people walk on the same floor, but now the arguments from the TMS sprites fan Smile

To draw and cleanup a BOB, blitter needs:
read background, read bob, write background, read shadowbuffer, write background: 5 times DMA!

Example, your desire of 10x DMA for the MSX2 blitter: I would vote for 10x DMA for the MSX2 sprites: that is 320 sprites with 80 sprites per scanline LOL!

Another story is that a homecomputer wants GUI, so then blitter is better.

By Manuel

Ascended (18718)

Manuel's picture

19-08-2011, 20:39

So, who is Kai Magazine anyway?

By Hrothgar

Champion (479)

Hrothgar's picture

19-08-2011, 21:30


the same was initially in my mind. however i see some frame tearing during scrolling, so i'm not sure they are using the scroll v9958 register. Plus i've another game from the same publisher that has similar performances, (omnidir scroll+sw sprites) and this run on a real normal msx2.

of course, only having access to the game could reveal all.
anyone has the game ?
On an emulator it runs fine on MSX2. Interesting detail: obviously the screen is quite narrow, and when disabling sprites you will see all kinds of rotating player artifacts in the side borders. What technique is this? The game uses double-buffering on the same page? Apparently there was a pressing reason to do so, as enabling sprites (black ones, covering the side borders) reduces the VDP's copying capacity.

By the way: how does v9958 scroll register guarantee against tearing? Isn't it just as dependent on scanline-specific enabling?

By PingPong

Prophet (3885)

PingPong's picture

19-08-2011, 21:44

On an emulator it runs fine on MSX2. Interesting detail: obviously the screen is quite narrow, and when disabling sprites you will see all kinds of rotating player artifacts in the side borders.
sprites are enabled? i cannot believe the game used sprites to do some masking on borders... are you sure?
using bruteforce scroll there is no need to do any masking, of course if one is not using adjust registers, but i think the game does not.
if the game is not subject to licensing can you send me this?

By the way: how does v9958 scroll register guarantee against tearing? Isn't it just as dependent on scanline-specific enabling?

if the game used v9958 scrollregs, on the vblank time the cpu or vdp write a so little part of the moving background that likely the vblank is not terminated. In those situation the user cannot see frame tearing, because is visible only when the scanline catch up the blitter copy. But there is no blitter copy during active area, so no tearing.

However, i've observed a little frame tearing, making me think the programmers achieve scrolling using brute force (blitter)

games that use v9958 scrollregs, does not usually show frame tearing.

By Hrothgar

Champion (479)

Hrothgar's picture

19-08-2011, 21:56

If it isn't a very weird emulator glitch, I'm quite sure. And it isn't used to mask borders on a V9938 hardware scroll; the scrolling is bruteforce copying. Top border seems masked for some reason too. The hardware sprites are only masking frame-rotating software sprites that reside in the border.

Quite likely the game is still under copyright. Would sharing for technical and educational purposes be a fair use? Oh well...

By PingPong

Prophet (3885)

PingPong's picture

20-08-2011, 08:14

If it isn't a very weird emulator glitch, I'm quite sure. And it isn't used to mask borders on a V9938 hardware scroll; the scrolling is bruteforce copying. Top border seems masked for some reason too. The hardware sprites are only masking frame-rotating software sprites that reside in the border.

Quite likely the game is still under copyright. Would sharing for technical and educational purposes be a fair use? Oh well...
can you make a short youtube video showing masking and sprite artifacts?

By robertwilting

Champion (467)

robertwilting's picture

20-08-2011, 09:04

And for the folks who missed it
Nuts is still sold by Sunrise. The English Version that is.

http://sunriseformsx.nl/index.php?item=software&action=page&group_id=10&page=6&lang=EN

The Spanish version seems to float arround on the net.

By Hrothgar

Champion (479)

Hrothgar's picture

20-08-2011, 12:03


can you make a short youtube video showing masking and sprite artifacts?
I'm not sure I can. Is there an emulator with a sane user interface that both allows disabling sprites and writing video files? I thought BlueMSX could but it produces only a weird cap replay file.

Have you checked your spambin lately?

By Manuel

Ascended (18718)

Manuel's picture

20-08-2011, 13:25

I guess you don't like openMSX's user interface, but I'm offering help if you still want to try.

In openMSX you just say in the console:

set disablesprites on

(see http://openmsx.sourceforge.net/manual/commands.html#disablesprites )
before starting your spriteless recording.

Recording reference: http://openmsx.sourceforge.net/manual/user.html#recording

Or ask me any questions (preferably on our IRC channel).

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