Metal Gear Solid 1, Metal Gear Solid 2 - yes or no

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By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

03-07-2003, 14:59

Doh! That's the case for almost every game...ALMOST every game. Indeed. ALMOST. Come on, a lot of the puzzles in MGS1 were exactly the same as in MG/MG2. They could have done with a bit more inspiration.

It's funny that you describe SD-Snatcher as more computer-music since a lot of the music in snatcher is J-Funk

I think you agree to me that a Beethoven tune on PSG is to be considered as computer-music? Tongue

"trying to look like" indicates it is purely a graphical issue?

It mainly is, but music adds in to that as well. I'm not saying MGS1 and MGS2 have the worst in-game-music I ever heard, I'm saying most modern games have lousy soundtracks and I still enjoy the experience of 'computer-music' during a game more than a bunch of samples. But that has also to do with the fact that I appreciate creating things within certain limitations. An SCC, FM-PAC, etc... all card with limitations that make it quite tough to create something with the atmosphere you want.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9769)

wolf_'s picture

03-07-2003, 15:11

It's perfectly possible to create movie-style music with the appealing 80's and early 90's themes. But for some odd reason, may 80's artists didn't survive the 90's.

An example: I like the old/classic Parsons tunes, with full orchestra, some guitars, drums and synths. If you listen toh is more recent albums, like The Timemachine, then you'll notice the Parsons-sound is all gone! What's left is a bunch of lame sounds and cliche semi-ripped dance influences (including RIPPING 'Children', by Robert Miles Smile ).

Now, project this development on composers for games. In the 80's you had crap soundcards. There wasn't room for real atmospheres/sounddesign, and anything you wanted to do had to be done with really writing notes. That resulted in nice themes.
As technology moved on, so did the composers, but w/o the elements that made the 80's games cool! Instead, they adapted common filmstyles, and they weren't prepared for that.

By Thom

Hero (583)

Thom's picture

03-07-2003, 16:02

Too bad MGS2 contains a shedload of FMV.

By MrRudi

Hero (515)

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03-07-2003, 16:09

>>Doh! That's the case for almost every game...<

>>It's funny that you describe SD-Snatcher as more computer-music since a lot of the music in snatcher is J-Funk<<

I think you agree to me that a Beethoven tune on PSG is to be considered as computer-music? Tongue

No I don't...neither do I consider Usas' Mohenjo Daro played with piano and violin to be classical music. Come on! The 80s games on MSX had a specific sound, highly melodic, a lot of 'zundara' bass-riffs and especially the Konami's had some weird chord transitions that made it quite unique. The same with C64 music, or what to think about Turrican? That's what I refer to as computer(games) music.

>>"trying to look like" indicates it is purely a graphical issue?<<

It mainly is, but music adds in to that as well. I'm not saying MGS1 and MGS2 have the worst in-game-music I ever heard, I'm saying most modern games have lousy soundtracks and I still enjoy the experience of 'computer-music' during a game more than a bunch of samples. But that has also to do with the fact that I appreciate creating things within certain limitations. An SCC, FM-PAC, etc... all card with limitations that make it quite tough to create something with the atmosphere you want.

A lot of games have lousy soundtracks, we can agree there, often made without giving the music of a game proper credit, like it doesn't matter. Some games however do an exceptionally well job at making modern music fit in well. Rayman on the PSX is a great example where, although modern studio-made synthtunes, the music is still what I would call videogame music. The Konami music wasn't great because of the limitations, if I listen to a full studio-made version of an old Konami tune, it's still great. Although I can understand your affection with creating things with limited abilities like an FM-Pac, I do not share it. If SD-Snatcher had the full audio versions like the SEGA CD instead of the SCC versions, would you have hated it?

It's perfectly possible to create movie-style music with the appealing 80's and early 90's themes. But for some odd reason, may 80's artists didn't survive the 90's.

An example: I like the old/classic Parsons tunes, with full orchestra, some guitars, drums and synths. If you listen toh is more recent albums, like The Timemachine, then you'll notice the Parsons-sound is all gone! What's left is a bunch of lame sounds and cliche semi-ripped dance influences (including RIPPING 'Children', by Robert Miles Smile ).

Dude you are SO right...I love the older Alan Parsons songs, both the vocal as the instrumental ones but the newer albums are so...bland in comparison.

Now, project this development on composers for games. In the 80's you had crap soundcards. There wasn't room for real atmospheres/sounddesign, and anything you wanted to do had to be done with really writing notes. That resulted in nice themes.
As technology moved on, so did the composers, but w/o the elements that made the 80's games cool! Instead, they adapted common filmstyles, and they weren't prepared for that.

Interesting point of view...of course better technology makes some composers lazier. Why write all those notes when I can use this auto-sequence instruments, or this effect that makes it sound cool. I had the same problem when I went from MSX to synthesizers, take the "X" effect for example. On MSX you spend many hours using 'X' effects to adjust the sound, but when I started on synths I just used the auto-LFO function. (nowadays I program it again for more control). Perhaps we should ask ourselves why (almost) no-one makes those nice melodic theme's anymore...

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9769)

wolf_'s picture

03-07-2003, 17:39

Perhaps we should ask ourselves why (almost) no-one makes those nice melodic theme's anymore...

Well, because tons of n00bs enter the music scene these days. I consider writing proper melodies as an artform, outside producing/playing. How many ppl are able to write melodies on paper these days?

But besides this pov, without any limits, you don't have to be creative anymore these days. As I said, with 3 channels featuring a block wave, you *have* to focus on themes, and counterpoint. Take the game-over music of sd-snatcher.. it's great counterpoint music. It sounds like a lot, but in essence it's 3 channel music! Writing in such a way became somewhat extinct these days.

By Dinomight

Resident (46)

Dinomight's picture

03-07-2003, 19:27

I tend to agree heavily with MrRudi Smile Konami is great, they still are... I enjoyed all parts of the series (including the gameboy ones and nes). The fact all is now 3D is just evolution, it doesn't break down the game really... Also about the FMV, some FMV is nice and i like to play a game like a movie. I like to be totally immersed into a game (that's why i like RPGs so much)... I know movie games are usually not about gameplay but i tend to disagree here when it comes to metal gear. Metal gear wasn't a movie before the game and they implemented movie style camera angles and FMVs in such a degree that it's different from 'movie'-games. Hideo is a true artist.

On this really off-topic point of the music... Back in the days with the block-waves and 3 channels offcourse U HAD TO experiment to get MORE out of that PSG or SCC. This was usually done by in-house music artists who had a lot of skills with 3 channels block-waves. I know a lot of music was inspired from orchestral J-shit but this doesn't mean u can't be creative...in fact U HAVE to be with 3 channels. Today they just master the orchastral parts and put them as wav files (mp3)? So an important creative step from bringing it from Orchastra's to 3 channels computerchip is now missing.. Maybe this explains the 'lame' music these days... it sounds like a real orchastra!

Give me my 3 channels back! Big smile

By Thom

Hero (583)

Thom's picture

03-07-2003, 19:54

I'd rather see less FMV, especially since games are NOT movies and if they pretend to be, they're always less than an average B-movie. That's also why nowadays' videogame music seems to lack that touch of magic, that sheer class of eardrum shagging, an overall character... It's just flim music! Videogames and films are completely different kind of arts and they shouldn't share too many elements.

By Dinomight

Resident (46)

Dinomight's picture

03-07-2003, 19:58

they're always less than an average B-movie.

Hey what's wrong with B-movies!? Big smile

I agree with u, Thom, that commercialism killed the cat too Wink

By MrRudi

Hero (515)

MrRudi's picture

03-07-2003, 19:59

>>Perhaps we should ask ourselves why (almost) no-one makes those nice melodic theme's anymore...<<

Well, because tons of n00bs enter the music scene these days.

Well I wouldn't call Harry Gregson-Williams a n00b really Smile and some 'classic' people are still active such as Chris Hülsbeck and Allister Brimble.

I consider writing proper melodies as an artform, outside producing/playing. How many ppl are able to write melodies on paper these days?

paper? what's that? But seriously, any musician should be able to write melodies, some are better at it than others but that's mere natural. It would be interesting to see what the new members of JDK come up with in Ys 6. I think it is more a matter of what publishers think the people want to hear, or what the Producer wants him/herself.

On this really off-topic point of the music... Back in the days with the block-waves and 3 channels offcourse U HAD TO experiment to get MORE out of that PSG or SCC. This was usually done by in-house music artists who had a lot of skills with 3 channels block-waves. I know a lot of music was inspired from orchestral J-shit but this doesn't mean u can't be creative...in fact U HAVE to be with 3 channels. Today they just master the orchastral parts and put them as wav files (mp3)? So an important creative step from bringing it from Orchastra's to 3 channels computerchip is now missing.. Maybe this explains the 'lame' music these days... it sounds like a real orchastra!

Give me my 3 channels back! Big smile

Hey I like orchestral music...really, I wouldn't wanna go back to the FM based orchestral wannabe's of earlier Final Fantasies compared to the full orchestral versions of later installments of the series.

I'd rather see less FMV, especially since games are NOT movies and if they pretend to be, they're always less than an average B-movie. That's also why nowadays' videogame music seems to lack that touch of magic, that sheer class of eardrum shagging, an overall character... It's just flim music! Videogames and films are completely different kind of arts and they shouldn't share too many elements.

Nah...when FMV sequences (or scripted cutscenes as in MGS) are used to tell the story and not just as a show-off I am all for it. Sure, you could that in-game with a text balloon but there is a lot less to see that way. The face expressions for one add a lot to any scene. The 'Comrade' scene in MGS2 just after Emma dies is brilliantly crafted and gives me goosebumps everytime I see it.

By Thom

Hero (583)

Thom's picture

03-07-2003, 20:42

I did like Shenmue I & II a lot, though! And these games also used a lot of FMV, however these (mostly interactive) cut-scenes were made by the in-game engine (although you can see the difference as the cut-scenes use a lot more polygons, due to its pre-recorded nature).

Some people think Shenmue is like watching drying paint however. That's their loss.

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