Metal Gear Solid 1, Metal Gear Solid 2 - yes or no

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By SolidEric

Champion (332)

SolidEric's picture

05-04-2004, 20:27

And ofcourse you can make a game that plays like a movie... Ofcourse movies are not interactive. Movies are definition of linear. But games are (especially recently) becoming more and more alinear. So that can't be combined then in your opinion?

It goes without saying this is all IMHO, but MGS2 is a large step BACK from a videogame.

I totally agree with you guyver, games nowdays are more like a movie,but hey you can click those movies away and go on with the game!

By Fudeba

Expert (113)

Fudeba's picture

05-04-2004, 20:47

First of all, sometime ago an interview with Hideo was published in a brazillian videogame magazine. What was said by Kojima was somewhat like: Konami wanted to create a new game in 'Commando' style, but MSX was able to cope only with a few sprites in the same line... and if many sprites were in the same line (shoots or characters) it would cause too much flickering. Then the idea arose: And if the game's idea was NOT to shoot? If the player should avoid the enemies, the problem would be solved. This is how Hideo describes the origin of MetalGear "Tatical Espionage Game". That way, since Commando is a game that has a similar point of view of MSX MetalGear, I don't think "MGS is like how Hideo thought at first" simply because what Metal Gear became is different from what he thought at first.
Probably he thought it would be nice if it could be in 3D, and so on, but these ideas probably came later, when the first real-3D games were released.

Anyway, I liked a lot Metal Gear, Metal Gear 2. A liked Metal Gear Solid at Playstation, but it would be a lie if I had said it's best than original. In fact, I own also Metal Gear Solid for GameBoy Color... and damn it! I think THAT is the way Metal Gear should be. It's pretty similar to MSX versions, but it's fast, the movements are smooth (many frames), lots of enemies... In fact, I think Metal Gear Solid for GBC is a lot better as a sequel to Metal Gear 2.
I agree with Konamiman (I do not like 3D games also), but I think Metal Gear Solid for PSX is a great game. I just do not like to think of it as a "perfect sequel" to Metal Gear 2 storyline.
Metal Gear was always based in movies stories, even the main character is based in a Hollywood character (Snake Plissken, from Escape from New York, a trash action movie which I like a lot, btw). But I don't know exactly why, MGS just seems to lack something.
And MGS2 simply throw away the spirit. MGS2 has a great story, but I think of it is as a really boring game. As pointed by some friends... too much "movies" - non-interactive action. Too much background/parallel storylines. This was not the way in MSX games. You had no idea of what was happening. There was no need for parallel storylines to confuse the player (as happens in MGS2).
In MGS2, the storyline has too many "real time plot changes"... that made myself question Hideo's hability to finish a history line. I did not liked the way he finished Snatcher (this thread was a big discussion in pvt mails, I do not want to reopen it...) and I did not like the way he wrote MGS2. In both cases, the game has a different speed: on Snatcher Act 1 and 2 and Metal Gear 1 to Metal Gear Solid, things hanppen in a timing. On Snatcher Act 3 and MGS2, things just happens in a rush, as if someone was pressing him to "finish this game soon, man, we want to sell it!".
Please, do not misunderstand me. I'm not saying Hideo is a moron. I think he has brilliant ideas, but I also think Konami usually put him in a rush and maybe he "doesn't work well" under pressure.

Even with all those remarks, I think all versions of both stories (Snatcher/MG - excluding NES MGs, whose are not from Hideo, AFAIK) are superb, far above the "good" classification.

These are just my 2 cents...

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout's picture

05-04-2004, 21:00

I have just (finally) finished MGS1 for the very first time and have just started playing MGS2. To me, MGS1 was (and has always been, that's why I finished it this late) a struggle. I wasn't capable of controlling the game the way I wanted it to be. The 'camera'-positions and the distance of the player (overview) felt somewhat wrong to me. Apart from that, it felt like one big Metal Gear 1 & 2 ripoff, considering the situations you ended up in and the puzzles you had t o solve. It was like your favorite band finally releasing a new CD, and when you bought it it turns out to be just another compilation with only one or two new songs. (wow, what a nice bridge to the music of the game). In Metal Gear 1 and 2, the music played a very important role in the game. It added the atmosphere it needed. Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2 just don't do it for me. But for that matter, almost none of the modern computer games soundtracks really appeal to me. IMHO, Computer games aren't meant to have movie-theme-style music. Adding SCC squeeks and PSG bleeps to a movie would not help a lot either. The two are very different things.

However, I am quite enthousiastic about MGS2. As the game doesn't only look very good, the gameplay works just like I'd want it to. When I'm on top of the plant, and can look around at the sky, the water, shoot a pigeon or two to sleep, etc. etc. etc. ... it gives 3D game what you'd expect they should have.

As for the FMV's, well on one hand I like them, on the other hand.. there's no art in FMV's compared to 'real demos' as they used to be in games in the 'MSX days'. Furthermore, the FMVs in MGS2... in the entire 'tanker' part of the game, just when you think: 'aaaaaaaaaah a fight!!!!' the FMV sets in and something happens you'd like to take part in as a gamer. The first encounter with 'Vamp' and 'Olga' in the plant were equally disappointing.

Of course, Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2 sold millions and millions, but the original Metal Gear games dated from a time that not every home in the 'western' world had at least one computer. Comparing sales figures from 1998-2004 (MGS1 has just been souped up and re-released as Twin Snakes) with 'just' 1987 and 1988, even when taking the amount of (MSX) computers and several other economical calculations in account, seems like something pointless to me.

By the way.. Hideo Kojima IS a genious, there's no doubt in my mind about that. Tongue

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

05-04-2004, 21:26

Just to make something clear: I'm not saying Hideo is not a genious, I'm just saying geniouses can be dumbasses sometimes too Tongue

By MrRudi

Hero (515)

MrRudi's picture

06-04-2004, 13:28

I just pointed out with my reference to the salesfigures that Metal Gear was not 'killed'. Perhaps your overly romantic view of the 1987 original was killed, but that is something completely different. I seem to be the only one here that loved the two Metal Gear Solid games, and I also seem to be the only that is not bothered that the world around us actually changes. Go figure.

As for the music, if you would put a modern version of the Theme of Tara in Metal Gear Solid 1, it would not add the atmosphere needed, it would break it down completely. Kojima tried to make kids feel like they were a top secret agent in 1987 with the means available, in 1997 he tried to make (young) adults feel like a superspy with the means available. Those means had increased, so the game changes. It is still remarkable to me how well the essence of Metal Gear as a whole was preserved. 99.9% of new 3D games based on a classic 2D game fail...MGS didn't fail.

Oh and the people that in general say 'I don't like 3D games, they suck' should either play better 3D games (there are so many good ones) or stop playing at all. 2D games are ancient history, like it or not.

By Fresh

Expert (90)

Fresh's picture

06-04-2004, 15:49

A perfect example of a 'daring' move was Abe's Oddysee in 1997 (PS1 and PC). It was a 2D game without sidescrolling in an era where 3D was 'the way to go'. For me it is a classic game that everybody should try. The 2D even served a purpose, as it resetted the screen. The sequel Abe's Exoddus was cool too, but like a lot of sequels, the first one was better...

Then in 2002, Munch' Oddysee was released for XBOX. Yes, 3D and yes, it sucked... The atmosphere was gone and so was the humor.

3D is cool, but don't forget 2D!!

I also liked both Metal Gear Solids! I'm playing Twin Snakes on my gamecube now!!

Fresh

By MrRudi

Hero (515)

MrRudi's picture

06-04-2004, 18:07


Now that is just as dumb as saying "all 3D games suck".
The only reason there are not (many, coz they do still exist) 2D games out there (GBA and other portable stuff being the exception), is because the games industry has (d)evolved into a 'me too!'-industry.

No it's reality. 3D games suck! is just a biased opinion and quite a generalisation at best. 2D games are ancient history is looking at the market and seeing which way we are headed. The GBA's lifespan has been seriously diminished, the new generation of handhelds will be 3D (PSP, NDS), whereas the PC and Console games are already 3D.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is the way I like it, or the way it should be, but it is the thing that's going to happen. There are so many things I don't like about where we are going, doesn't mean it's going to change because I don't like it.

The 'me too!' syndrome has nothing to do with 2D or 3D by the way, it has to do with commercial success, 10% of the games make money, so copying successful ideas is a safe bet. Not that it guarantees anything.

Bottomline is: if you didn't like MGS or MGS2 it has nothing to do with it being 3D, it's just not your type of game. Which is fine. It is for me, and it gets me a lot more drawn into the "I'm Solid Snake, the superspy, the tough guy...I can sneak into anything"-feeling than Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 did, the tension is much more present. Sure, Metal Gear did the same for me in 1987, but I was a kid back then...it seemed logical that a guard would freeze when hit once. instead of falling or trying to fight back.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

06-04-2004, 19:10

You have a very limited view of the world, and of business, apparently...

By MrRudi

Hero (515)

MrRudi's picture

06-04-2004, 20:28

You have a very limited view of the world, and of business, apparently...

A limited view of the world I won't disagree with, although one could assume every individual has a limited view of the world. But might I ask what causes you to say my view of business is limited as well?

By Fudeba

Expert (113)

Fudeba's picture

06-04-2004, 20:44

Well... this will a bit off topic, but...
I *usually* do not like 3D games... There are a few exceptions though: MGS is one of them... and long time ago I liked Tie Fighter and X-Wing a lot.
I just few dumb playing most 3D games with "2D controlers". Using two hands or dozens os scroll buttons just to "walk around" is ... "too complicated" for a casual player like me. I just want to sit, use my cursor keys and space to shoot. That's all.
Today, if you want to be happy playing, you have to be a professional player... You have to evolve and became a mysterious creature with twelve fingers on your hands... and of course, three arms will help too.
This is just why I usually do not like 3D games. MGS and MGS2 *do not* suffer from this problem. The playability is just ok. This is why I like them. But I *do* think original 2D ones were better. They gave me the same feeling and were easier to play (and yes, I do have a lot of imagination).
Other 3D games I really liked was those I had played with real helmet, when my look (and aim) was controled by my head and movements by the keyboard. *This* is nice 3D playing. Easy to play, true imersion and so on. Unfortunately, the market is not made for those like me, that plays less than 30 minutes per week. I'm not the kind of guy that buys 5 games a month.
In other words, the market is not worried about my interests.

NOTE again, those are remaks about "2D games are dead, 3D is the future" and so on... not about MGS. The statement about 3D x 2D looks like "Newspapers are dead, Internet is the future" or "Radio is dead, TV is the future"... a weird statement. Anyway, as long as I live, there will be 2D games. Even if I have to build them for myself.
I'll send a copy for Konamiman, of course. (^=

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