maximun speed with real msx2 hardware

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Par usuario_msx2

Paladin (745)

Portrait de usuario_msx2

04-12-2016, 11:37

Hi,
I'm testing real msx2 hardware(Philips vg8235/20 mainboard) with overclock (WAIT signal from MSX-ENGINE is not disabled, speed will be increased if removed), my maximun speed for this MSX computer is: 9,83mhz

Cartridges used for test:

+Megaflashrom SD
+L.Padial PS/2 Keyboard

Game tested:
+Gunfright

https://www.flickr.com/gp/44218601@N06/15B0T4

Best regards

!login ou Inscrivez-vous pour poster

Par usuario_msx2

Paladin (745)

Portrait de usuario_msx2

04-12-2016, 12:55

Metal Gear 2 video added

Par Dhampird

Hero (585)

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04-12-2016, 13:45

Hello, interesting, have you been able to do tests with Msx Super Turbo circuit that i sent you time ago with Megaflashrom SD in a F9S? Even with the MSX2+ XV with Turbo ON the Megaflashrom SD hangs with Turbo, all other cartridges works, i tested new things but even the cart hangs when Turbo Is ON in a slowdown slot. Then it seems Sony Machines: HB-F700S, HB-F9S, MSX2+ HB-F1 XV cant handle Turbo with Megaflashrom SD (using Msx Super Turbo) Let me know if you discover something with Megaflashrom SD problems with Turbo and Sony´s.
Regards.

Par usuario_msx2

Paladin (745)

Portrait de usuario_msx2

04-12-2016, 15:25

Hi David,
I answer you in the Spanish forum, Actually I have no Sony msx machines(XV550 videotittler is the only one).

I think MegaflashromSD is not the problem, because it runs ok in my Philips vg8020, Dynadata DPC200, VG8235 and VG8245 the same as L.Padial SD/MMC and Sinfox(Y.Seo SD) with zilog based turbo kit(even 9.8mhz).

A good test could be you get a vg8235/nms8245 and install Superturbo and then test megaflashrom with it.
Using a osc. for viewing the new clock signal generated must help.

Regards

Par Dhampird

Hero (585)

Portrait de Dhampird

04-12-2016, 15:31

Hi, no philips yet, no osc, no much time for test, also i´ll have to make mod on philips to allow Superturbo works, and that spend time, will be cool if you could make tests on philips, for now i´m in more projects and dont have the time. Sad

Par sd_snatcher

Prophet (3047)

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06-12-2016, 01:57

@usuario_msx2

Nice achievement! Would you mind to share some details?

I see you have used the Z8581 as the clock generator. Does that mean that on I/O operations your CPU is running at 4.915MHz?

What VDP has your machine? The stock V9938? Or have you upgraded it to the V9958?

Have you changed the BIOS ROM and/or the mainRAM memory?

Is it able to play Aleste-1 without freezing?

BTW, Konami games aren't good for this kind of benchmark. They always have timing, even when such timers have bugs. 30fps and 20fps games will run at most at 60fps, no matter how fast your CPU is.

OTOH, original ZX-Spectrum ports have no timing at all, so you can use them to check how fast your CPU is. For example, Robocop is a great test.

Also try running all the utilities from the BENCHMRK folder of the MSX reverse enginering utils.

Par Dhampird

Hero (585)

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06-12-2016, 15:28

Hello, watching the pictures (let me know usuario_msx2 if i´m wrong) Z80 is with socket and changed probably for a 10Mhz version, i cant see right the label, the VDP is with socket and seems be VDP9958 conversion because the cable solders on its solder side and a Diode is placed on WAIT pin that goes to another point, probably to Z80, also a fan placed above vdp9958 to avoid overheat. I didn´t see any ram expansion, if i´m right the ram is original and is DRAM HM50464P-12 (32k? and 120ns?) x8 = 256K, 128K for VRAM and 128K from MAIN RAM, i´m not sure. The Bios seems be with socket, but also seems be the original Bios with Label Philips, if it is the original probably have more than 100ns, also i can see a white pcb that seems be a power supply adapter, and the Kit Turbo with zilog divider Z0858110PSC and jumpers for select different crystals:
Crystal 12,000 /2 =6Mhz
Crystal 19,66 /2 =9,83Mhz
Crystal 18,432 /2 = 9,216Mhz
Crystal 14,31818 /2= 7,159Mhz
Another Crystal unknow value
If that is correct the bios and DRAM have a lot of milisecons but the kit Turbo even works ok at fast speeds, in Superturbo i remember that using original DRAM on F9S and F700 the msx hanged when Turbo was ON (using high crystals), DRAM should be changed for SRAM, time ago a forum user called Retrofan told us that in its F700P the MFRSCCSD+512K SRAM worked ok with Turbo Kit 7Mhz and in his F700P he used DRAM KM44C256BP-7 (70ns) expansion, on mine F700S tests i was using SRAM LPE-512K (55ms i think) and Turbo kit hanged only with MFRSCCSD+(no SRAM expansion on my cart), on mine machine the kit 7mhz worked ok with another carts.
Could be any issue with DRAM or SRAM that makes MFRSCCSD dont work ok with "Superturbo" when Turbo is ON? its seems that your Turbokit works ok even using DRAM, the Retrofan´s F700P also used DRAM but his cart had internal 512KSRAM expansion, the cart can handle its own SRAM ,yes, but maybe not SRAM internal in combination with Superturbo?
If the 8235 info above is correct and the Bios is slow and the DRAM have 120ns , i think if we install a Superturbo on that machine with a higher crystal more higher than 5Mhz probably the msx will hang with Turbo ON, this is an speculation, on mine tests with Superturbo ON in F9S the machine only can handle a little more than 5Mhz with original F9S DRAM and original bios, and original F9S DRAM is MB81464-12 (120ns) and original bios probaly 120ms to 150ms.
Could be that all machines with kit turbo that works with MFRSCCSD are using DRAM? The cart can handle SRAM, but maybe there is a problem with SRAM in combination with Superturbo with that cart, i dont know.
Another option is noise on CLK signal, but if that is true that problem dont affect to another carts with Turbo ON, and remember that Konami Ultimate Collection and the Megaflashrom SCC+ 8Mb (the older) worked ok with Superturbo and Turbo ON, and those carts hardware practically is the same as the MFRSCCSD have. If all that carts hardware are the same i dont understand how a CLK noise can only affect to the MFRSCCSD and not the others. If CLK noise is the problem probably will affect all those carts: Konami Ultimate Collection, Megaflashrom SCC+ 8Mb and MFRSCCSD, but only affect to the last one, i dont know, this is speculation.
If mine info is right, the internal MFRSCCSD FPGA is running at 21.48Mhz (3.58Mhz x6), so if we put a higher speed the internal result is multiplied x6 ,if thats true should be happen incompatibilies at high speeds, anyway seems kit 7mhz work, but not superturbo, and when all carts tested worked ok with superturbo and no with MFRSCCSD should be a reason, maybe how works the FPGA is a problem for Superturbo+SRAM+Fast Bios and not for Kit Turbo+low DRAM+low Bios?

Par usuario_msx2

Paladin (745)

Portrait de usuario_msx2

06-12-2016, 17:26

VG8235 MOD
===========
+Z80 20mhz
+VDP 9958
+PSU mini ITX (external 12v PSU)
+3RD EXTERNAL 3.1 SLOT
+OSC. (TURBO MOD: Z0858110PSC )
Crystal 12,000 /2 =6Mhz
Crystal 14,31818 /2= 7,159Mhz
Crystal 16 /2= 8Mhz
Crystal 18,432 /2 = 9,216Mhz
Crystal 19,66 /2 =9,83Mhz
+ORIGINAL VG8235 DRAM
+ORIGINAL NMS8245 ROM

KONAMI GAMES WITH TURBO SPEED TEST:
====================================
TWINBEE, MG2 SOLID SNAKE, MAZE OF GALIOUS.

====================================
NOT TESTED Aleste-1 AND SPEED BENCHMARK.

Par Dhampird

Hero (585)

Portrait de Dhampird

06-12-2016, 18:35

Then, if the behaviour of the Philips is similar to F9S or F700 or XV, Superturbo shouldnt work with high crystals with a DRAM 120ns and low BIOS 120ns to 150ns, probably get 5mhz is possible with that config or not, should be needed put fast DRAM 70ns or SRAM 55ns, and BIOS 70ns (better than 90ns) to get like 8Mhz working, if not the machine can hang or not when Turbo ON, i never tested it on a Philips. A theory could be that the circuit or design of Superturbo is fast + fast SRAM + fast BIOS + High Crystal could makes for some reason or unknow reasons the FPGA that are running at 21.48Mhz (3.58Mhz x6) works out of balance and then the machine hangs when Turbo is ON in the case of the MFRSCCSD and Sony, or SUperturbo is incompatible at all with the cart for other reasons, this is only a speculation, on Philips maybe how its designed and the zilog divider CLK signal+ 9.83Mhz + low DRAM + low BIOS makes a balance that allows MFRSCCSD works ok with Turbo, should be great try on Philips fast DRAM then SRAM and fast BIOS, probably you could get more speed or even stable 10Mhz, if the MFRSCCSD still works OK with fast DRAM / SRAM and BIOS then if you wish we could try the Superturbo we talked built in a cart, because with that low DRAM, no SRAM and BIOS probably Superturbo will hang at a range like 5Mhz or little more like happen in Sony machines, but Philips is different, could be get more Mhz or not with that config, to be pretty sure will be better low the ms.

Par usuario_msx2

Paladin (745)

Portrait de usuario_msx2

06-12-2016, 23:36

No changes are needed with rom or original dram chips with my vg8235 because it works fine under zilog turbo kit.

External superturbo cartridge must be tested with my vg8235 (I said it to you by mail)it must be the same as my external Z0858110PSC cartridge.
https://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/hardware/external-clock-g...

If MFRSD & superturbo doesn't work under my computer then superturbo kit doesn't generate the same clk signal as Z0858110PSC because it's for sure that MFRSD works fine with it.

In the other hand, if MFRSD & superturbo works fine in my computer then be sure that your sony msx board change some signal(clk or other signal) in the slot that causes MFRSD doesn't work at high speed.

Best Regards

Par Dhampird

Hero (585)

Portrait de Dhampird

08-12-2016, 21:02

Hello, usuario_msx2 i dont think i´ll build that cartridge for you because time ago i sent to you a complete superturbo kit tested, with the hope you could make tests on Philips, some days ago you told me on a mail that for sure you have the circuit, but you shouldn´t find yet, dont worry anymore, dont look around for it anymore because i found it here today:

The Japanese legend translation (behind the kit) to English:

"I got a board from overseas people! It seems to be an additional board for operating MSX 2 etc. with actual Z 80 at 7 MHz.Thanks to Mr.Eduardo!"

Mr.Eduardo = usuario_msx2

Yes, today i was searching info in the Tsujikawa site and i found the same circuit i sent to you time ago usuario_msx2, exactly the SAME, same components, same OK behind the board, the same i sent to you, i know my staff. After that you even pretend that i´ll build another superturbo in a cart to make test? Are you kidding me?
I´ll ask to Tsujikawa about it. You could tell me, about that Superturbo i sent time ago, that you sent it to Tsujikawa, but you lied to me, telling me that you have it for sure at home, and after that you even demand to me that i´ll build a new one in a cartridge for test, forget it, i´ll talk to Tsujikawa if he can try things, no with you. Also i´ll get soon as possible a 8235 or 8245 to make tests.

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