Nishi is working on the Next Generation MSX

par sd_snatcher on 16-08-2018, 17:03
Sujet: MSX Revival
Langues:

Kazuhiko Nishi posted on his personal website (post #143) that they are developing the next generation MSX. According to him, the CPUs are ARM and R800. He made it the same size as Raspberry Pi, with hardware that can be programmed to anything on the FPGA. He likes to announce it this year. The machine name is still undecided.

Relevant link: Nishi.org

Commentaires (42)

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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17-08-2018, 10:07

In order not to distribute comments over different pages, here is a link to the already existing post.
Great news anyway!

Par Sander

Ambassador (1847)

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18-08-2018, 00:39

News comments can always be added next to forum posts. What's news without comments? I'm excited about this project, but I'm unsure there will be a market for it, except of course some of us. Hopefully it will not be a mini msx with non-working keys that looks like a shrunken TurboR Wink

Par cax

Prophet (3722)

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18-08-2018, 04:51

I bet it will resemble this one.

Par Randam Hajile

Expert (67)

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18-08-2018, 12:57

Would be nice! Seeing that C64 kit in the stores now makes me want an MSX with HDMI...

Par Latok

msx guru (3708)

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20-08-2018, 00:06

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny LOL!

Par Grauw

Ascended (8700)

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20-08-2018, 01:21

You’re forgetting the forum thread which has a few pages of speculation Smile. As for me, gonna need some more deets to get excited Big smile. The ARM CPU makes me go eeehh…

Par Pencioner

Paragon (1071)

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20-08-2018, 17:17

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny LOL!

Because it looks so strange in 2018 so that everybody silently waits for any details or so instead of reacting Tongue

Par KdL

Paragon (1255)

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20-08-2018, 17:26

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny LOL!

Running Naked in a Field of Flowers

Par gdx

Prophet (3236)

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20-08-2018, 18:02

If I understood correctly, two models are developing. The first (FPGA+ARM+R800) is scheduled for before the end of the year and the second (made with customized chips and with the wireless communication function) for next year in autumn.

Par zett

Hero (606)

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20-08-2018, 20:15

hmm a old man refinding his old ideas.... yeah right.

Par Latok

msx guru (3708)

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20-08-2018, 21:45

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

Par gdx

Prophet (3236)

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21-08-2018, 08:55

To understand, we would have to know exactly what he is trying to do.

Par edoz

Prophet (2204)

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21-08-2018, 12:33

Latok wrote:

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

I guess it is more for the students to understand the basics and concept and not to make it commercially.

Par Sander

Ambassador (1847)

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22-08-2018, 01:28

If you look at the logo of the ocm, you can see that that one was also aimed at students. An MSX compatible device that can program IOT devices in a evolution of MSX basic, I'll put some money on that guess. If you read interviews with Nishi or even his presentation in Tilburg IIRC, MSX was envisioned at the smart hub in your home, a bit like homekit today. It will be a system for those people that want to connect and control IOT devices, in a easy way. Or it will be a skrunken msx replica, with some games pre-installed. Like with a D4 enterprise deal Wink Whatever the outcome, it will not be targeted at us MSX users but -hopefully- a new generation of students or another market segment. Let's pray for that Wink If it's nice I probably buy it. Kudos for Nishi that he is at least trying like he did with the ocm. But please hire a good enclosure designer this time and change your marketing manager Wink It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles. MSX has a much bigger software catalog and plenty of great games to create retro console with pre-installed games. Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal. We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll Wink

Par RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

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22-08-2018, 06:13

Sander wrote:

It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles.

€90 vs. €320. Built-in library (no less fun to play than many modern games) vs. buy games separately. Nostalgia vs. modern high powered / 3D capable / portable console. Surely there's a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't surprise me if buyers of these consoles are a very different audience.

Quote:

Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal.

Just Konami, really. Smile2 And perhaps a few others like Compile, Irem, Telenet, ...
But to provide people with their 'retro fix', price is everything. €100+ just wouldn't fly for the casual hook-up-to-TV-and-have-a-go player. And for most of us 'old guys' who used MSXes back in the day: too small a market to lean on that alone. So either it would HAVE to be cheap, or it'll just be a curiosity (sort of like the OCM).

Par Sander

Ambassador (1847)

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22-08-2018, 23:58

Quote:

too small a market

I don't agree. MSX sold 5 million units in Japan, and an estimated 4 million units in the rest of the world (source). That's 9 millions units total. Of course the NES/Famicom sold almost 62 million units (source), and now the NES Classic edition sold more than 4 million units (JP+world) and that number is still growing since the re-release of the unit earlier this year. But let's say 4 million units. That would mean for the "MSX Classic Mini" that there is a potential market for 580.000 units worldwide ;) Even if you write off half of that number for all the MSX computers that were only used in offices it still a big number. And we played games here on office computers during lunch time in the eighties and nineties. Back then even the general manager would come to play some games. I think now would maybe even be a better time to release a new msx device: most of our generation are now at an age that they want to experience some things of their childhood and youth again. Arcade centers are popping up again, 8-bit stuff sells for crazy prices on local secondhand markets and Nintendo Classic Mini's are sold by the masses.

Par FiXato

Scribe (1530)

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23-08-2018, 20:22

Sander wrote:

We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll Wink

MSX R2D4? Murdoch

Par ListoMefisto

Champion (421)

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29-08-2018, 23:56

Nishi posted on his personal website (post #144) a new update about the Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX :

# 144 Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX Part 2

2018-08-28
"As I wrote about the next generation MSX, it was quite an echo so I would like to write a bit more. It is the size of Raspberry Pi, power supply is AC 48V. It is equipped with an AC - DC converter on the board and also covers the power supply of USB 3.0. Equipped with Xilinx PGA. Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth and USB 3.0.100 pin multipurpose bus connector. Stacking 64 boards makes it multiprocessor. OS is Windows 10, Linux, MSX OS (MSX DOS evolution form). Open source code of FPGA. Linux and MSX OS also make the source code open. Provide online groupware. Make it a platform for information exchange and information disclosure. We plan to sponsor D4E company and offer game software cheaply. Adjusting C compiler. MSX BASIC license schedule. The CPU is ARM and R800."

Par gdx

Prophet (3236)

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30-08-2018, 13:34

I wonder why not choose directly a USB 3 type C power supply. It would be more convenient and probably cheaper for all.

Par ren

Paragon (1340)

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30-08-2018, 14:54

So there will be an actual R800 on the board?
They'll bring those back to production, or is there some old stock still?

[quote]Stacking 64 boards[/quote] que?

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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02-09-2019, 06:21

I really like the idea of a modular computer. Nishi's idea to use the computer similar to a RaspberryPi's on the education market fits well to the previous concept of our system.
User-friendly extensions would not be a problem, a system that can be adapted to its areas of responsibility. From the smart box on the desk to the powerful server, everything can be changed in a few simple steps. Whether the computer has one or two module slots is up to you.

There are possibilities for a battery pack, for RAM upgrades and SSD or HDD kits. Every element is easy to attach, no need of cables.
These cases build for an RasbPi, but could be easily adapted to any board, they are build out of LEGO.
Please take a look at MSX.PICS

Par ren

Paragon (1340)

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30-08-2018, 15:13

When the time comes we can order one @hamlet? Smile

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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30-08-2018, 16:33

At least the building instructions, but I'm getting mad with LDD.

Par Latok

msx guru (3708)

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01-09-2019, 22:17

Anyone knows whats going on with Nishi? According to Japanese media he might be involved in financial fraud at his university? On his personal website www.nishi.org all his blog entries from July 2019 have been erased. Strange.

Par gdx

Prophet (3236)

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07-09-2019, 10:36

It seems that Nishi was fired because 2.1 billion yen are disappeared from his university.
http://www.tv-osaka.co.jp/yasashii/news/?p=7591
We can say goodbye to the future MSX project.

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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07-09-2019, 23:04

Did he hired once more a Godzilla to run through the streets of Tokio? Smile
Besides we heard that members of our community worked with Nishi on this project. Maybe some of them may enlighten us now about this deal?

Par sd_snatcher

Prophet (3189)

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08-09-2019, 14:33

This article is easier to be translated and gives more details on the problem.

Par sd_snatcher

Prophet (3189)

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08-09-2019, 14:47

Interesting enough, I ended up bumping on this series of YouTube videos where he's interviewed about his past relationship with Microsoft. Too sad that there are no English subtitles, but at least those here who understand Japanese can enjoy it.

Par DRomero

Expert (124)

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08-09-2019, 15:55

So the past former director speculated with 100 million ¥ in cryptocurrency and now the money is lost?

What a surprise, I'm betting she not bought Bitcoin but instead other shitcoins XD

Par Latok

msx guru (3708)

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08-09-2019, 20:32

Well, it looks like Nishi only started at this university in june, to solve problems which occured earlier. He was dismissed from this job only months later because there was a disagreement on how to solve the issues...

Par PhilipsMSX

Supporter (15)

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25-12-2019, 17:50

Not news ?
I prefer this, a true MSX (like C64 or Super Famicom mini) with few games included than by example MSXVR but....
Difficult to release it

Par edoz

Prophet (2204)

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26-12-2019, 23:44

I ordered the new C64 and the spectrum Next as well.. a real MSX from the original designers would be so cool!

Par Yobi

Master (145)

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06-02-2020, 12:25

It's going to be 64 bits Cool
http://nishi.org/

Date: 2020/02/04 # 346

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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06-02-2020, 13:41

Thanks Yobi!
The next step:

Quote:

We are making the next generation MSX at the University of Tokyo. The CPU was Z80, R800, 64bit ARM. Initially, it was a 32-bit ARM, but we changed it because people in charge of the software requested that a 64-bit ARM be better. The OS that runs on 64-bit ARM is Linux. C, Python and LISP can be used. Details are around summer.

Par spacemoai1973

Master (129)

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06-02-2020, 17:44

I wonder what remains "MSX" about this. It's beginning to sound like a generic ARM SoC like a Raspberry Pi with MSX emulator. Nothing about compatibility with MSX cartridges or hardware. Backwards compatibility is the cornerstone of MSX!

I have more faith in TNI's 32bit MSX project, really...

Par Latok

msx guru (3708)

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06-02-2020, 18:48

Great news! 'People in charge of the software....' Sounds like a team! And from a university! Pretty exciting Big smile

Par PAC

Guardian (5441)

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06-02-2020, 19:03

Yes, I thought due to problems at university this project was abandoned definitely. Anyway after reading the lastest post I'm also wondering what kind of MSX has Nishi in mind...

Par sd_snatcher

Prophet (3189)

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06-02-2020, 21:48

Sounds more and more like a clone of the MSXVR... Running Naked in a Field of Flowers

Par DRomero

Expert (124)

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07-02-2020, 09:51

Clone of MSXVR indeed.

Par hamlet

Scribe (2890)

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07-02-2020, 10:03

Nishi's original concept of an FPGA based computer had something else in mind. Here there is certainly still development of an exciting story.
I am glad he is back in the boat and will be part of the game again.

Par spacemoai1973

Master (129)

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07-02-2020, 16:23

Nishi's original "one chip MSX" concept 19 years ago was an ARM core running Intent + FPGA with live reprogramming. Especially the latter was quite exciting as a concept! All MSX hardware could be activated in the FPGA when necessary, but also other application-specific hardware could be conjured up. Endless possibilities.

It was that concept which led to the release of the 1chipMSX, but that did not have an ARM core or live reprogramming.

For this "Next Generation MSX" there is no mention of FPGA, but there is mention of Z80/R800. It is confusing because Z80/R800 is useless without V99x8 and all the other hardware that make an MSX.

So there are many questions:
Is the Z80/R800 implemented in FPGA afterall, together with other MSX hardware?
Or is there an ASIC with MSX functionality?
Is the Z80/R800 and everything else just a software emulation?
If the ARM is running Linux, an OS with which just about every programming language on earth can be used, what is the significance of mentioning C, Python and LISP explicitely?
Does this mean there is again an Intent-like abstraction layer that only has bindings with C, Python and LISP?

Par ducasp

Master (190)

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07-02-2020, 21:04

My guess is that it's more similar to MSX VR than anything else, it is meant to be cheap and FPGAs aren't cheap, and also most ARM SOCs have way more processing power than needed for a faithful emulation.