poll:outrun for msx2

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Par PingPong

Prophet (3339)

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31-05-2019, 22:44

the msx1 version of outrun is basically a spectrum port with a hw sprite to 'paint' red the car.
it is painfully slow. I think that could have been better using tricks like konami did in hyper rally .

i think the msx2 version is better. But even this version does not take full usage of msx2 capabilities.
maybe the usage of screen 4 on msx2 could limited a bit graphically if we compare with sms version.

Anyway i think could have been better...
What kind of improvement you think were possible (especially graphically) on msx 2?

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Par Ivan

Ascended (9078)

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31-05-2019, 23:32

This was done for MSX1: Chase H.Q. ...and it is a direct port from ZX Spectrum.

Yes... OutRun definitely could have been much better on both MSX1 and MSX2.

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9763)

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01-06-2019, 08:11

I always wondered whether the g9k would be good enough for the true arcade experience, regarding speed/smoothness.

Par PingPong

Prophet (3339)

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01-06-2019, 09:46

yeah, but what kind of improvements on msx2 version do you think could be done? (realistically)

Par PingPong

Prophet (3339)

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01-06-2019, 09:48

Talking about TMS/V9938 is like there is some tech difficulties getting this kind of game on msx. There are not much games of this kind on msx. (I mean those with perspective an view on the back of the car)

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9763)

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01-06-2019, 10:04

Biggest problem with this game is that the world you're in isn't aligned to 8x8 characters. That's because of the perspective and because of the hilly flow of the camera. The perspective aspect dictates that things should get smaller when it's farther away. This is quite different compared to e.g. horizontal or vertical shooters where everything is on one and the same plane. The multilayers of the v9990 would be good for games like Sonic the Hedgehog, which has two fixed layers (more distant layers could be faked with prefab tiles, kind of in the way Space Manbow moves its level 1 stars).

For any MSX2 adaptation, I'd say: use screen 4 tiles for the roads; straight, bends and all possible hills. Use line-ints to actually 'move' the road by altering the colours of the road line markings (should be dedicated colours not to be used for other graphics and sprites). Then use sprites for the cars and tiles for trees, signs, bridges and such.

As for v9990; I actually don't know whether you can change the palette at line-ints. If not, all the possible road tiles would have to be pre-fab, I guess.

Par theNestruo

Expert (102)

Portrait de theNestruo

01-06-2019, 14:42

wolf_ wrote:

For any MSX2 adaptation, I'd say: use screen 4 tiles for the roads; straight, bends and all possible hills. Use line-ints to actually 'move' the road by altering the colours of the road line markings (should be dedicated colours not to be used for other graphics and sprites). Then use sprites for the cars and tiles for trees, signs, bridges and such.

I agree. You have a point there. Tile-based approach is the way to have decent a frame rate, and the "blockiness" is less noticeable when the scenery is moving fast. Some examples: Out Run Europe (SMS), Power Drift (C64), Dukes of Hazzard (ColecoVision), or the initial sequence of Le Mans 2 (MSX) (the boxes and the semaphore are pretty good looking).
I think using chars for scenery is less problematic and flexible than using sprites (that would be too small). Maybe a mixed approach can give bigger, better graphics, but managing occlusion (front-layer tiles that should hide further sprites) can get compilcated.

In my opinion, the "definitive" road-rendering engine for MSX is MSX2/SCREEN4 (mainly for faster VRAM blitting), reduced character redefinition (for road borders only), tile-based scenery, and sprites for player car, non-occluded enemy cars (mid distance), and details. But again, it's only a wild guess!

Par wolf_

Ambassador_ (9763)

Portrait de wolf_

01-06-2019, 14:53

Now that I think about it, you don't even need line-ints to change the palette of the road lining. When using sc4, all you need to do is change the colour tables of the tiles involving road lining. Running Naked in a Field of Flowers

Par NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5299)

Portrait de NYYRIKKI

01-06-2019, 15:51

They are not exactly master pieces either... but that MSX1 version is actually so bad, that it would really need some patching. The music is great, but that is all that is good. Somehow during porting they have managed to break the road animations on corners (making road to jump all over the place) that does not happen in original ZX Spectrum version. The time counting is also broken so badly that you can't finish the race even if you do perfect run... really sad.

MSX2 version suffers from narrow roads, super simple look, horrible music, parts of the cars tend to disappear etc. etc. and it is simply quite painful experience to play... I just can't find any fun left from the original game. I would say both of them are quite typical examples of how to make money with good license without putting in too much effort. I don't think it is even about how they look. It is just that the original game feeling had been missed completely.

Par Ivan

Ascended (9078)

Portrait de Ivan

02-06-2019, 10:06

Yes, the MSX1 version is considered by many the worst version of OutRun (just watch on YouTube some reviews of the game like this one). Too bad we are on the bottom of the list for this particular game!

I have seen loads of really good games for MSX since the good old days but never a proper 3D racing one (presumably due to the difficulty of progamming such a demanding game: colourful graphics + smooth 3D scrolling + sense of speed). There have some attempts like this one for the V9990, though.

And hey... there's a lot of crap out there for other systems too! Just take a look at the C64 version of Chase H.Q.. Awful and at the same level of OutRun for MSX.

Par PingPong

Prophet (3339)

Portrait de PingPong

02-06-2019, 10:30

Konami with hyper rally proved that things could have been better even on msx1.
Chase HQ is horrible on all 8 bit platforms. Speed wise the best was ZX spectrum, Color Wise the Amstrad CPC, MSX is a spectrum conversion so not as speedy as zx but even not the worstest. By far, color wise and speedy the c64 is the worstest

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