Why f*ck the FAC?

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By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout의 아바타

29-12-2002, 18:31

While posting about the old demo's and the FAC demos I remembered that for a long period it was considered to be cool not to like the FAC. There were many anti-FAC demo's and anti-greetings.

Looking back, I think the FAC was the group that started the rise of the amateur MSX Scene. The soundtracker they made enabled many people to create cool music to their own products, and their demo's were the first to show that amateurs could actually create nice effects in demo's themselves.

So... where did all this anti-FAC come from?

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By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

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29-12-2002, 18:57

I think it started with some people not liking some of the FAC people personally. Also, many felt FAC Soundtracker was too pricey and wasn't 'all that and a bag of potato chips'.

The Soundtracker music replayer was slow and badly programmed.

I don't remember when the anti-fac started, but I think it had something to do with the development of MoonBlaster as well. I remember Remco Schrijvers bragging about how much faster the MB replayer was and bla bla bla. So FAC was dumped in favor of the competition.

And then there was the FAF (Federation Against FAC), headed by Fony (always teasing something Tongue), which kind of gave it a more humoristic spin. Indeed, it was cool to be anti-FAC...

But going back to MoonBlaster; look at the current displeasure in MB for MoonSound. Basically we have the same situation right now:

People are forced to use a product, because it's the only one of its kind. But they don't like it, because they feel it's not optimal.

In a much bigger scene where rivalry among people and groups was pretty heavy already ('We can hack the newest Japan release fastest!' and later 'We can show the best demo FX') such a situation can lead to hatred (in the more mellow sense of the word).

In fact, I think the only reasons there is not a anti-moonsoft movement now, is because:

a. they quit

b. there is less rivalry

c. there is less scene

d. msx-audio/msx-music sounds nice too (Remember at that time demo's mostly had music ripped from games, so there wasn't really anything to fall back upon)

By Latok

msx guru (3867)

Latok의 아바타

29-12-2002, 20:03

FAC is the reason we are still here on this forum blabla-ing about MSX. I remember the first time I saw Fac Demo IV with the first Fac Soundtracker 1 music. 9channel music WITH audiosamples....Droooooooooool..........

Of course, if FAC hadn't been the group who made this util, probably someone else would have done. But THEY did it. So they're GOD.....In my view......

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9956)

wolf_의 아바타

29-12-2002, 22:33

The problem with mbwave is that it's mainly a few MINOR things that are irritating.

If you ask for a lot, you can imagine that coders don't have time for radical changes.

But since there are such alot of SMALL, annoying and stupid !!non-musically-thought!! things, you get the feeling that sunrise really let the users down!

Face it, the card is from 1994, since that moment we're still using a program not half supporting the card for what it could do, and the other half is so full of annoying stuff that effectively you can use only 25% of the whole card. To the, back then LOYAL sunrise-users/fans, I'd call that disrespectfull.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (116)

anonymous의 아바타

29-12-2002, 22:43

MoonSoft != Sunrise

But I agree.

I've heared sunrise turned down michiel de vries' request for a moonsound for loan to program Meridian, and Rob thought "as if he's ever going to do it" so he didn't get one.

A bit wrong attitude on the part of sunrise I think.

I understand they gave out lots of moonsounds to people who promised to develop for it, and only a fraction of them did. But what you should do then is not deny new requests, but get back the ones you uselessly gave out so they can be put to good use once again!

Or at least make the people pay for them (at least 50%)...

Sometimes I get the feeling Sunrise isn't just a foundation put also a philantrophist organisation. ^^;

By Bart

Paragon (1422)

Bart의 아바타

29-12-2002, 22:47

You've all got it wrong Smile

The anti-FAC thing started way earlier then Fac Soundtracker and surely way before Moonblaster. The anti-FAC thing is highly connected to MSX'er "hate" for Commodore and especially the Amiga.

FAC ripped almost all their stuff from Amiga demo's Not only the looks, the idea's and Music. But their complete attidute towards the rest of the scene. Hayo Rubingh of FAC liked to present himself and the FAC as the one & only. Many people got irritated by that, also because their stuff wasn't even original.

Fony opened the first public offense towards FAC in Fony's Demo Disk #1 if I remember correctly. Before the FDD #1, only some minor mud was thrown by means of demo scrolltexts and stuff...

Anywayz, it's really sad this ever happened and even got enthusiasm in the scene. FAC was undenyable a pioneer in MSX demo's and MSX music stuff. Their work did not get the respect it deserved.

By Haze

Master (140)

Haze의 아바타

29-12-2002, 23:21

The problem with mbwave is that it's mainly a few MINOR things that are irritating.

If you ask for a lot, you can imagine that coders don't have time for radical changes.

But since there are such alot of SMALL, annoying and stupid !!non-musically-thought!! things, you get the feeling that sunrise really let the users down!

Face it, the card is from 1994, since that moment we're still using a program not half supporting the card for what it could do, and the other half is so full of annoying stuff that effectively you can use only 25% of the whole card. To the, back then LOYAL sunrise-users/fans, I'd call that disrespectfull.

So that's why you requested Oracle from Shad? Tongue

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9956)

wolf_의 아바타

30-12-2002, 01:04

Oracle has really zippo to do with it Smile

As a matter o'fact, I didn't even request 'Oracle' at all!

I requested 1 thing, that shadow made a dual player, which could play 2 independent mb tunes together.. these would be an fmpac tune and a musmod tune. The crap about making 'stereo' music in MB is that the fmpac and musmod shared the same notes, the same volumecodes (in the patterns), the same x-coders, the same slides, etc. etc. Esp. the volumecodes were a pain in the ass, since the musmod's FM definitly sounds different than the fmpac FM. What sounds like proper echo-volume settings on a musmod can sound crap on the fmpac, and vice versa. And what needs 2 channels on a musmod to sound fat, can be done with 1 channel on an fmpac (depends on the situation). I figured it would be the best if I was able to make the same tune twice, optimised on all aspects for each soundcard. This was to prevent ppl saying that the music sounded good on musmod-only, superb in stereo, and average on fmpac-only. When 2 highly optimised tunes, without 'overlapping/disturbing' settings/notes would play together it would really sound even fatter then you currently know of Smile Not to mention that 6+9 would indeed be like having 15 hard left/right-panned channels, drums not included. (this last 6+9 option could indeed mean that the tune works great in stereo, but that you simply miss things when listening in 'mono') It's funny to realise that we probably didn't hear ALL an msx could do, but that the opportunity is now a realistic history.

Shadow actually supported the idea, but once he made a system for that player (f-kernel) he figured that he had made half a tracker already, so he decided to actually ADD that tracker Smile

The result is ofcourse a typical coder's program, did anyone actually use it? In that time I was moving bits by bits to pc. So I wasn't overawed to use it anyway, besides, I was less interested in making tunes for stereo anymore. So, consider 'muzax3' as the end of my classic carreer.. The musicthings I did with ROM wasn't because I liked it, I was more interested in writing those texts.. it's like the footballplayer becoming a trainer Smile

btw, The reason ROM died was because there was hardly anything to write at that moment, at least not each 2 months for a full diskmag. So we decided that it was better to stop. It was the era where MCCM wrote about gamebuilder, murphy's law, tons of dynamic publisher and childish art-galleries.. to give you an idea about the boring situation back then Smile. Compared to today, you can consider that era as a big dip, back then it was getting old, today it's cool because it's retro Smile

hmm.. getting late, and getting OT ..

anyway, your trivia is updated again..Wink

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9956)

wolf_의 아바타

30-12-2002, 01:07

Wouldn't that be cool for a fair? a real triviant clone? where 2+2 candidates have to answer questions in categories: msx-music, msx-gfx, msx-demo, msx-game,msx-magazine?

I think Wammes could be the perfect butler !

BIFI against Quibus, that would be a match!

By ro

Scribe (4696)

ro의 아바타

30-12-2002, 08:18

Well,

For me the FAC was one of the first groups who showed me what the demo-scene was all about. I was hackin'and coding a bit in those days, but never got myself to actually make stuff to be published.

I remember demo groups like SIGMA-GROUP, STAR-CRACKS (well, not really demo coders in the first place.. but what the heck, they did one of the first scrollaz in the SD-snatcher intro, right!), some FRENCH groups which names I really can't recall at this early moment. I just loved the idea of showing off your coding capabilities. That was one of the reasons I started doing the demo stuff. Did some stuff in BASIC first, but learned the beautifull language we all know as Assembly (machine code) in a rush and started coding real shit...

Not long after my first poor attempts I met Savage (alex) and was really impressed with his ideas and the feeling was mutual, so coding had to be done! (hehe, remember the bullshit demo?)

So really, FAC did start a whole new riot... including the music tracker stuff (yeah, ripped from commodore amige.. the irony), while it wasn't all'that it was the first tracker to make music while even supporting msx-audio!

no-one can't deny that, now can we!

(hell, even I did some FAC coding in the early years.. Can't remember that one guy from the FAC I personally met.. but who cares)

Oh, the whole GENIC thing (now known as sunrise) was also a fire-starter!

you see ladies and gentlemen, a little history lessons never hurt anybody, right.

and now... the greeting list: hehe, no just kidin'

los greetos, ro

ps. I once was bussy making Miracle (heh, oracle for opl4) which was pretty need already.. got also a OPL4 from sunrise to reproduce this product.. never got to an end really... just like oracle by the way... it's a nice attempt to come up with a decent tracker.. but I never REALLY finished it...

By BiFi

Enlighted (4348)

BiFi의 아바타

30-12-2002, 08:49

Wouldn't that be cool for a fair? a real triviant clone? where 2+2 candidates have to answer questions in categories: msx-music, msx-gfx, msx-demo, msx-game,msx-magazine?

I think Wammes could be the perfect butler !

BIFI against Quibus, that would be a match!

I for one like the idea. Though there are more people with quite some MSX knowledge, like Patriek Lesparre (GuyveR800).

And for the people who don't know Quibus' real name: it's Manuel Birlderbeek (since not everybody is on IRC - yet - ).

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