A dream or a hype ?

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By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout의 아바타

21-06-2005, 15:39

Wolf: I understood the FPGA chip needed for the Second Generation One Chip MSX will only be available at an affordable price somewhere in 2007. At this moment, we're not talking about a 150% price difference here, but a 1000% price difference, at least. Besides, did the people you spoke about the 1cm have experience in VHDL coding? Did they have any insight in the VHDL code as it is used in the One Chip MSX? Did they see the final One Chip MSX in action? (Again, I saw it configged as an MSX2 with MegaSCSI, SCC, MSX-MUSIC emulation and was told there was space left to pull more tricks. As a MegaSCSI alone costs 20.000 yen and offers quite some unique and interesting features, I think the price of the One Chip MSX suddenly doesn't seem to be that steep anymore). The whole charm of the MSX computer has always been pulling the maximum out of limitations and, provided a couple of VHDL developers embrace the One Chip MSX, I expect quite some nifty extensions and improvements to the MSX standard on the first One Chip MSX already. And perhaps some people would like to implement some (elements of a) completely different computer system, such as the C64. (MSX with SID anyone?).

The thing that I don't seem to be able to get out of your system is that the ->ONE CHIP MSX IS NOT AN MSX1<-, and its capabilities lie far beyond that. Just because the device is only MSX1 compliant out-of-the box doesn't change anything about that, even if you have to buy/make/lend an extra cable in order to use the VHDL capabilities yourself, and even if you have to wait for that boosted MSX2 VHDL code to be released a couple of months after you have obtained the One Chip MSX.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni의 아바타

21-06-2005, 15:45

... and will most likely not consume too many gates in the FPGA chip.

Better to talk about gate equivalents or logic cells or -- Xilinx terminology -- CLBs,
meaning Configurable Logic Blocks.

By Samor

Prophet (2157)

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21-06-2005, 16:03

Things like SID on MSX; it sounds so farfetched....

For me personally, the main reason to get a 1chipm would be to have a new MSX, and preferrably one that's as close to a Turbo-R as possible Wink

I don't really care that one could make new extentions that many MSX users won't be able to use anyway - however, implementations of exisiting HW in the 1chip DOES sound interesting.
I still don't get why they're wasting space on an SCC though while they could've used that for something else (because SCC is not an MSX standard) Wink ...ah well...


To samor: no i meant the atari flashback http://www.atari.com/us/games/atari_flashback/7800

ah, I see...
looking interesting but I read VERY negative reviews about that one.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

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21-06-2005, 16:18

Things like SID on MSX; it sounds so farfetched....It does for 'old-fashioned' hardware, but it doesn't -have- to be for FPGA.

For me personally, the main reason to get a 1chipm would be to have a new MSX, and preferrably one that's as close to a Turbo-R as possible WinkSounds like the Second Generation One Chip MSX is yours to choose then Wink

I don't really care that one could make new extentions that many MSX users won't be able to use anyway - however, implementations of exisiting HW in the 1chip DOES sound interesting.I consider owners of the One Chip MSX to be MSX users as well. In the end, even though it doesn't outperform the turborR (yet?), the One Chip MSX still is a new MSX computer. I expect both existing and new hardware to be implemented in VHDL.

I still don't get why they're wasting space on an SCC though while they could've used that for something else (because SCC is not an MSX standard) Wink ...ah well...I'd also reccomend VHDL developers to drop the SCC VHDL and use the gates for something more unique. The implementation of SCC does show, however, that it can be done.

By Samor

Prophet (2157)

Samor의 아바타

21-06-2005, 16:24

It does for 'old-fashioned' hardware, but it doesn't -have- to be for FPGA.

tbh I meant more that it sounds a little pointless to me Wink
But, perhaps some people would like a SID player in their MSX....

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1769)

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21-06-2005, 16:43

right...in all honnesty,who else apart from the current msx users is waiting for this?
and NO it's not for kids...kids want flashy fast GTA TEKKEN 6 SOUL CALIBRE GEAR SOLID (copyrights with various companies)
It won't do well in the US...again. And the US is very important in the succes of consoles.
I hope that it will cross tothe US, like ps3,nintendo revolution and X-box 360 (AND YEAAAAAH YOU CAN ADD HARDWARE ON ALL OF THEM...
YEAH THEY HAVE HARDDRIVES YEAH THEY CAN RUN EMULATORS YEAH YOU CAN QUITE PROBABLY PROGRAM ON THEM TOO)
All I'm saying is,competition is major,and technology advances,and it seems people follow that. And if it's expensive,people won't buy it.
The majority that is.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

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21-06-2005, 16:45

poke: ASCII/MSXA aim to sell 5.000 - 10.000 first generation One Chip MSX computers. I think they are aware that, with this product, they won't reach the masses yet. The plans for the future do look suitable for quite a large audience tho Wink

By Bart

Paragon (1422)

Bart의 아바타

21-06-2005, 16:49

@Poke; FPGA development is indeed not something for the kids. But there actually is a large group of FPGA fanatics out there. I think new FPGA hardware with capabilities like the OCM will interest them... So a search on Google for FPGA developers or something.

Interesting a group of hobbyist developers can be very good for us, the MSX'ers who have probably less knowledge of FPGA programming. Might come in handy to have some hardcore FPGA fans looking at the OCM...

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1769)

poke-1,170의 아바타

21-06-2005, 16:49

I see...yeah it takes a first wave of users for every innovation...cd, dvd....untill it becomes common.
You're right...the computer market is tricky though,fast,and always strifing for faster better slicker...
Hope msx can regain a place in it...the ideology of the msx might be the key for succes

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni의 아바타

21-06-2005, 18:09

I don't really care that one could make new extentions that many MSX users won't be able to use anyway - however, implementations of exisiting HW in the 1chip DOES sound interesting.I consider owners of the One Chip MSX to be MSX users as well. In the end, even though it doesn't outperform the turborR (yet?), the One Chip MSX still is a new MSX computer. I expect both existing and new hardware to be implemented in VHDL.

The FPGA is reconfigurable, so a game especially for OCM could contain the extensions needed
in its program code. In that case, the user wouldn't come in direct contact with the new extensions made to the system. One also could imagine, that the FPGA is reconfigurable during runtime. So first, the MSX1 system is loaded, then a game other software is loaded, then, the software loads a new part of configuration into the logic cells not yet used for the system, and, if the software terminates, this previously not used logic cells get idle until reused by the next program. But this is only possible if the FPGA is runtime reconfigurable.

Why shouldn't OCM users be MSX users? FPGA is just a technique for the implementation of
electronical circuits. Formerly, realization of electronical circuits was done e.g. in ASICs, today, it's more and more done in FPGA. They're more flexible, have lower costs. Did anybody care about how the Z80 was implemented 20 years ago?

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