A dream or a hype ?

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By Tanni

Hero (556)

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21-06-2005, 18:24

The whole charm of the MSX computer has always been pulling the maximum out of limitations ...
That's a key phrase! Maybe it's the charme, but maybe it's the limitation itself which encourages the users to overcome these limitations. I once read a similar opinion concerning ZX81!

... and, provided a couple of VHDL developers embrace the One Chip MSX, I expect quite some nifty extensions and improvements to the MSX standard on the first One Chip MSX already.
Can we still talk about standard if we alter the MSX system by altering the VHDL code of the system?

And perhaps some people would like to implement some (elements of a) completely different computer system, such as the C64. (MSX with SID anyone?).
In fact, with FPGA, we also could implement a C64 in the OCM, I think. Some years ago, there were a practical course where some students implemented a C64 in an FPGA. They got the VHDL code of the 6510 form the internet.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

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21-06-2005, 18:46

@Poke; FPGA development is indeed not something for the kids. But there actually is a large group of FPGA fanatics out there. I think new FPGA hardware with capabilities like the OCM will interest them... So a search on Google for FPGA developers or something.

About 25 years ago, most people -- if asked -- would have said, that programming isn't something for children. (You at least need 10 semesters of studying mathmatics!) But facts have prooven them wrong! Even children (and people who just were a little older) were interested in computers like ZX81, Commodore, MSX etc. and learnt to code. The learning process was very fast. These children impressed the adults with their programming skills. (The famous american computer scientist Josef Weizenbaum stated in one of his books, why this is quite normal: Children have more time to learn about it than adults, who must go to work.)

Hardware design is a little more difficult than just coding software. But using FPGA as target architecture makes it a little easier. So, if a child is interested in hardware design, why not using an FPGA to learn about. I think that's what Mr. Nishi want! Time goes on. Now it's hardware design with FPGA. Soon, it'll be system design with platform FPGA. And MSX is involved in that development. We, as MSX enthousiasts, should be very glad about that our system is part of that development. Thank's Mr. Nishi!

Interesting a group of hobbyist developers can be very good for us, the MSX'ers who have probably less knowledge of FPGA programming. Might come in handy to have some hardcore FPGA fans looking at the OCM...
The group of hobbyist developers could be some of us, as conclusion of what I said above!
It' not a question of FPGA programming. These is done by the synthesis software! You need not bother about the target architecture! You just select the architecture desired and the syntheses tool makes the bitstream for configurating the FPGA selected. In VHDL, you typically write an algorithmic description of the system. You need not think about the logic cells in almost all cases.

By POISONIC

Paladin (1012)

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26-06-2005, 03:20

Japan is the ultimate country to test new products if it fails in japan it will be a change of 95% that it would not sell good outside japan eighter.

btw achieving 50000 1chip msx'es is a big order if it was a PSP it was achieved the same day Smile

By smart duck

Master (155)

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26-06-2005, 10:54

Could be MSX one chip is a great system for industrial processes. It's small and easy to program.
What I want to point out is that not only the game market is interesting for this kind of systems.

By pitpan

Prophet (3152)

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26-06-2005, 13:07

Could be MSX one chip is a great system for industrial processes. It's small and easy to program.
What I want to point out is that not only the game market is interesting for this kind of systems.

Not really: it is expensive when compared to microcontrollers, slow, unreliable, without standarised input/output ports (RS232, USB, Ethernet). And try to convince someone that assembler is easy! There are much more convenient, compact, standarised, cost-effective embebbed systems.
1CM is just a pure nostagia-product with a *PERHAPS* interesting niche market. This is the main reason for its high price. Has anyone talked about the price margin of the product? I´d like to know it... guess it is going to be above the 50% margin. Just for freaks, collects and nostalgics (this is it: us).

By pitpan

Prophet (3152)

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26-06-2005, 13:11

Video-game industry is now a huge monster: there is no room for small-scale projects, just corporations operating on a global basis. Try to calculate the following "efficiency ratio": prize/MHz or prize/MIPS. 1CM is far more expensive then than ANY system around. It is cool, but "just for MSXers". I doubt if the overall quality would be better that, let's say, than a PS2(or PS3 or PSP) running an openMSX port.

By tfh

Prophet (3222)

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26-06-2005, 13:13

Has anyone talked about the price margin of the product? I´d like to know it... guess it is going to be above the 50% margin. Just for freaks, collects and nostalgics (this is it: us).

Well, I guess it would be 50%, if they can place a big order to the dactory that will make it for them, and if you don't take the costs of development in to account.
My guess is that with 4K or 5K of 1CM, they probably break even or make a few bucks.
Don't worry... I don't think they will get rich of this Smile

Keep in mind that the cost of a final product is a lot higher then just the material used!

By pitpan

Prophet (3152)

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26-06-2005, 13:48

I mean neat margin, including all costs, not only the components. I guess that the 5,000 units minimum order is to make sure that they make some money out of it. "Break even" and japanese business culture don't go together.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni의 아바타

29-06-2005, 14:39

... Just for freaks, collects and nostalgics (this is it: us).
Within a few days, I saw two people wearing a C=-coat.

By Tanni

Hero (556)

Tanni의 아바타

01-07-2005, 12:53

Video-game industry is now a huge monster: there is no room for small-scale projects, just corporations operating on a global basis. Try to calculate the following "efficiency ratio": prize/MHz or prize/MIPS. 1CM is far more expensive then than ANY system around. It is cool, but "just for MSXers". I doubt if the overall quality would be better that, let's say, than a PS2(or PS3 or PSP) running an openMSX port.
FPGA is best for realizing prototypes and small-scale projects. That's why it is used for the OCM! Computer technology is changing rapidly, as we all know, so why not in a way appropriate to the revival of classical homecomputer systems like MSX, ZX, Commodore, etc? Remember the dinosaurs: they died out but the smaller mammals survived. If it is possible to realize small projects better suited to the needs or the desires of the customers, then the huge monster of video-game industry will sooner or later get some difficulties.

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