A dream or a hype ?

페이지 10/17
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By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout의 아바타

07-07-2005, 23:32

News on the expensive cable: you only need the cable when an update of the VHDL code in the FPGA chip goes horribly wrong. See it as flashing the BIOS of your mainboard. If a flash fails, you need to replace the BIOS. In case of the One Chip MSX, you can still recover the FPGA chip by uploading the code through the cable. You do not need that cable for ordinary updates, though.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6267)

mars2000you의 아바타

08-07-2005, 19:20

This site allows to know how many One Chip MSX are pre-ordered until now :

http://ken.akari-house.net/1chipMSX.html

ken.akari-house.net/1chip-yohou.gif

It tries also to guess how many OCM will be finally pre-ordered (4 different guessings, more or less optimist) :

- Excite translation (text of 8 july, it changes of course everyday)
2107 taking a pessimistic view values(:+25 compared with the day before)
3233 standard values(:+38 compared with the day before)
4167 optimism values(:-19 compared with the day before)
6378 super-optimism values(:-67 compared with the day before)

By [D-Tail]

Ascended (8259)

[D-Tail]의 아바타

09-07-2005, 02:10

*sigh*... more depressing news please?

By timofonic

Rookie (31)

timofonic의 아바타

15-07-2005, 03:18

Hello,

I don't want to begin a flame or something like that, simply I'm very unhappy with the actual form of the ONE chip MSX, I was reading about IC-MSX and I have to say this:

- The 1C-MSX's FPGA chip (Altera Cyclone EP1C12Q240C8 FPGA chip), only has 12k cells (LEs).

- This "FPGA console" (personally I think it's a lot moreand better than that)has the same FPGA chip,and for simulate a fully NES and mostly of it's mappers (publicly at the moment he says on the webpage that has implemented fully 179 of 255, but he not update the website daily) actually he used the 87% of the FPGA chip for his NES core. It has better things compared with 1C-MSX like a 24bit audio DAC. a 24bit video DAC, db15 connector for controllers and db9 one for atari-like controllers, but not has an I/O connector like 1C-MSX but uses a Microchip PIC18F6620 microcontroller that acts like interface for controllers, memory card, USB and DIN4 connector for keyboard and possible other (like a future synth project).

- The best z80 available emulation for FPGA uses 4k, the VDP uses more than 4K (maybe 5k), and then there are only 4k available for PSG and MSX engine.

If we want have R800 & V9958 support, and SCC/SCC+, FM-PAC, MSX-AUDIO, MSX-MIDI, Moonsound (OPL4), gfx9000 emulation... It's needed a lot more than 12k cells that are on the OneChip MSX FPGA chip. ASCII try to make think us that this can be upgraded and expanded for support more MSX stuff when there are too few free cells on the FPGA chip.This for me is a crap marketing technic in a fraudulent style, I was rember things like that from Amiga inc, they are selling vapour, very crap and patethic. Please stop selling a product like a lot better than it is, this is a lot more expensive than a MSX1 and you can buy one too cheap, and a MSX2 at cheap prices. If they want to sell a lot better, they must provide a lot better product, capable of simulate a lot more stuff.
--
Personal comment to the 1C-MSX creators and ASCII: When have available a fully featured and expanded MSX tr computer (with moonsound, music module, gfx9000 and a lot more) and able to simulate a lot bigger hardware, back, back with a really interesting product...

Like said Nishi here, he says that they want to release in the future one with a bigger FPGA for simulate the other MSX computers. Then it's when it will start to be really interesting.... ASCII... wake up!!!
--
Half-OT
About FPGA and reconfigurable architectures:

Personally I see like a big error do a FPGA platform for each architecture. The best it's do one the most general purpose possible, flexible platform and enough power to simulate a very wide variety of even completely different and powerful retro hardware, then it will can a lot better the product, a lot less producing costs, a lot bigger user base and even a bigger and better scene doing good cores FOR FREE. If having a lot o different architectures simulated perfectly compared with original, it can be a lot more economically interesting for the people (and cheaper if they only want something that runs 100% like the original but an all-in-one solution), it will can have a very bigger market, even nearly of the mainstream one and can have a greater distribution, selling it like a small box that can "emulate" a lot of different computers & consoles 100% perfectly that can be prepared for retards, plug to tv, select system and play it with your favourite games.

About the competition "problem", there aren't initially problems because if it can be used to simulate a very vide variety of architectures, new ones will can have harder... With a FPGA platform you can have the best of emulation and real hardware in one! With having the necessary knowedgements and applying adecually, it can be simulated 100 perfect.

Greetings,

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout의 아바타

15-07-2005, 04:42

I don't want to begin a flame or something like that, simply I'm very unhappy with the actual form of the ONE chip MSX, I was reading about IC-MSX and I have to say thisWelcome to the forums, timofonic... Rest assured, your post is nowhere near a flame :) I hope you will consider my reply not to be offensive either, it's just my sense of humor in this one ^_^. I decided to combine your two very similar posts you posted shortly after one another and will reply to both.

It could be nice if the FPGA will can be upgradeable: having the 12K FPGA on the board and do a very complete bus connector for it with all needed even for a future and A LOT BIGGER FPGA expansions, of course when upgrading with the bigger FPGA, the old one must can be used too at same time (and have even more power. By example: a bigger FPGA for future MSX2+ and MSX Turbo R (with music module, moonsound...), SNES and GENESIS, even bigger 16bit stuff (neogeo, x68000, Amiga 500...). Very good for today, even better for tomorrow! Imagine a good upgradeable FPGA platform at good money price! A lot more people will buy it...

If you want good selling, think at this, if the platform is really VERY GOOD, people will do FPGA homebrew and the product will sell a lot more thanks to the community!Indeed, it would be very nice, but it would -at the moment- have a drastic impact on the sale price of the One Chip MSX. Would you pay a multitude of the price of the One Chip MSX that currently is on pre-order for this device? We must be realistic here. However, the MSX Cartridge slot can be used for extensions in case we run out of FPGA space on the OCM itself. These extensions can also contain FPGA chips of their own, e.g. programmed to work like all MSX soundcards known to man (and more). As it's little to no fuss to update the FPGA core of the OCM (it can even be done from MSX-DOS!), fitting the configuration to your exact needs will do most of the time. Just load the code you need before starting the program you want to run (ok, you'll need a reboot before you actually start the program, but...it does work that easily). Besides, when was the last time you needed an MSX2 with every single bit of hardware ever created for it attached to it at once? And when was the last time you actually had all this hardware attached to your MSX? (Even then, you have to use slotexpanders, which can also be used on the One Chip MSX, .... I think you get my point here.)

This "FPGA console" (personally I think it's a lot moreand better than that)has the same FPGA chip,and for simulate a fully NES and mostly of it's mappers (publicly at the moment he says on the webpage that has implemented fully 179 of 255, but he not update the website daily) actually he used the 87% of the FPGA chip for his NES core. It has better things compared with 1C-MSX like a 24bit audio DAC. a 24bit video DAC, db15 connector for controllers and db9 one for atari-like controllers, but not has an I/O connector like 1C-MSX but uses a Microchip PIC18F6620 microcontroller that acts like interface for controllers, memory card, USB and DIN4 connector for keyboard and possible other (like a future synth project). I really like having dedicated chips, because freeing a lot more cells of the FPGA that can be used for simulate the interesting hardware, please think about this in the ONE CHIP MSX.You might have noticed in this thread that the costs of ths NES FPGA project are considerably higher than the costs of the One Chip MSX, whilst actual production of the board, especially in high quantities, is still questionable. The more components are used, the higher the costs of the board will be. Besides, as the device lacks a cartridge port of its own, all mappers of all games you'd want to run with it have been implemented in FPGA. My bet is that most of the 87% of the FPGA space he's used goes to exactly that functionality. I think the approach of implementing as much as possible on one chip is the right way to go. As with the Commodore-One, it all looks very promising, but at the moment the One Chip MSX is closest to an opportunity of a complete out-of-the-box FPGA solution actually being produced on a somewhat large scale. In the FPGA chip of the One Chip MSX there is plenty of room for implementation of MSX2, SCC, MSX-MUSIC and MegaSCSI which is used to make the SD card work as if it was a harddisk connected to the MegaSCSI interface (fat16, of course). This alone is enough to run the vast majority of MSX software available, for sure.

The best z80 available emulation for FPGA uses 4k, the VDP uses more than 4K (maybe 5k), and then there are only 4k available for PSG and MSX engine.

If we want have R800 & V9958 support, and SCC/SCC+, FM-PAC, MSX-AUDIO, MSX-MIDI, Moonsound (OPL4), gfx9000 emulation... It's needed a lot more than 12k cells that are on the OneChip MSX FPGA chip. ASCII try to make think us that this can be upgraded and expanded for support more MSX stuff when there are too few free cells on the FPGA chip. Please stop selling a product like a lot better than it is, this is a lot more expensive than a MSX1 and you can buy one too cheap, and a MSX2 at cheap prices. If they want to sell a lot better, they must provide a lot better product, capable of simulate a lot more stuff.
--
Personal comment to the 1C-MSX creators and ASCII: When have available a fully featured and expanded MSX tr computer (with moonsound, music module, gfx9000 and a lot more) and able to simulate a lot bigger hardware, back because then it's when it will start to be really interesting....

Nishi saidhere, he says that they want to release in the future one with a bigger FPGA for simulate the other MSX computers.

ASCII... wake up!!!
ASCII... selling vapour?Yup, ASCII and MSXA are always selling vapour. Selling an official MSX emulator, selling ten thousands of MSX Magazines in the 21st century, selling MSX-BASIC for Robo-Education, even winning a price from the ministry of education, selling 5000 Game Readers... lets pretend it all didn't happen and this One Chip MSX came falling out of the sky, shall we? Really... with every step of the MSX Revival that was announced, there were many people stating 'they will never make it, and if they make it they will never be able to sell enough of it to make it profitable'. So far, those people have been proven wrong every single time. I think ASCII, MSXA and Mr. Nishi do deserve a bit more credit than you are currently giving them. Actually, I think it's you who needs to wake up on this one, knowing that you have little insight on the amount of gates that are actually being used for the ASCII version of the One Chip MSX (As you don't have the VHDL code, and don't have a One Chip MSX) and what the potential of the One Chip MSX really is. We already know the specifications I mentioned above are possible and I expect more to be possible as well. Besides, like I mentioned before, some changes to VHDL might take little, no, or might even save gates in the FPGA chip, whilst improving the performance of or adding new features to the One Chip MSX. Better doesn't always imply bigger, someone with affinaty with the MSX computer should know that ;)

One thing is sure though, if we want the second One Chip MSX computer Nishi was talking about in this lecture to appear on the market in a year or three to four (because that are the terms we are talking about to make a FPGA computer with specs like those available at an affordable price), we have GOT to make this first step happen. I have told the 'step by step'-story many times before, but I'll do it again. Every step taken in the MSX revival is the result of a successful previous step. Lets use some examples this time: Without the success of the MSX Magazines and Project EGG, it would not have been possible to produce Game Readers or MSX-BASIC for Robo Education kits. Without the success of the Game Readers, Robo-Education, Japanese MSX fairs and the continuing success of Project EGG, it would not have been possible to put the One Chip MSX on the market. Without the success of the first One Chip MSX it will get very hard to make a second One Chip MSX project possible. As far as I see it, this is our only chance of the MSX returning to the consumer market. In a relatively small amount as a first batch at first, but if that all works out, who knows what is going to happen next? It will open the doors for a new future for MSX computers, doors that have been closed for quite a while now. 5 years ago, nobody expected we would ever get this close to a new MSX computer being taken into production and even though its initial configuration is 'only' a boosted MSX1, I think the fact that a company like ASCII is back in MSX action is truly remarkable. If we decide to close these doors now, they might remain closed for good.

By flyguille

Prophet (3028)

flyguille의 아바타

15-07-2005, 20:12

I don't want to begin a flame or something like that, simply I'm very unhappy with the actual form of the ONE chip MSX, I was reading about IC-MSX and I have to say this

Welcome to the forums, timofonic... Rest assured, your post is nowhere near a flame :) I hope you will consider my reply not to be offensive either, it's just my sense of humor in this one ^_^. I decided to combine your two very similar posts you posted shortly after one another and will reply to both.

It could be nice if the FPGA will can be upgradeable: having the 12K FPGA on the board and do a very complete bus connector for it with all needed even for a future and A LOT BIGGER FPGA expansions, of course when upgrading with the bigger FPGA, the old one must can be used too at same time (and have even more power. By example: a bigger FPGA for future MSX2+ and MSX Turbo R (with music module, moonsound...), SNES and GENESIS, even bigger 16bit stuff (neogeo, x68000, Amiga 500...). Very good for today, even better for tomorrow! Imagine a good upgradeable FPGA platform at good money price! A lot more people will buy it...

If you want good selling, think at this, if the platform is really VERY GOOD, people will do FPGA homebrew and the product will sell a lot more thanks to the community!

Indeed, it would be very nice, but it would -at the moment- have a drastic impact on the sale price of the One Chip MSX. Would you pay a multitude of the price of the One Chip MSX that currently is on pre-order for this device? We must be realistic here. However, the MSX Cartridge slot can be used for extensions in case we run out of FPGA space on the OCM itself. These extensions can also contain FPGA chips of their own, e.g. programmed to work like all MSX soundcards known to man (and more). As it's little to no fuss to update the FPGA core of the OCM (it can even be done from MSX-DOS!), fitting the configuration to your exact needs will do most of the time.

Just load the code you need before starting the program you want to run (ok, you'll need a reboot before you actually start the program, but...it does work that easily).

Snout: you are very very sure that it will be possible?, because for to upload on execution time IT needs extra circuitry outside of the FPGA. Now if you aren't sure: it is vapour

* The procedure for online upgrade is to save all the FPGA compiled code in a memory controlled by an external PIC or something smart (not passive circuitry), then to send a command to the PIC. The pic needs to HALT the FPGA clock.... and the PIC starts rewriting the FPGA.... then it sends a RESET to the FPGA. And your MSX will restart...

why?

Because in each compilation of the FPGA's code the things can be moved to others LEs. Like when you recompile a software and all the routines not starts in the same addresses. So that will destroy any activity logically.

Besides, when was the last time you needed an MSX2 with every single bit of hardware ever created for it attached to it at once? And when was the last time you actually had all this hardware attached to your MSX? (Even then, you have to use slotexpanders, which can also be used on the One Chip MSX, .... I think you get my point here.)

And about to attach a lot of things throught to the cartridge port..... unless it hasn't a standard wiring... or a way to hook up all the _SLOT0,1,2,3 lines.... you can to place several devices on one FPGA unless all will be I/O based and only one MEM based.

{mod: removed large quote without any further replies}

By snout

Ascended (15187)

snout의 아바타

15-07-2005, 20:25

Snout: you are very very sure that it will be possible?, because for to upload on execution time IT needs extra circuitry outside of the FPGA. Now if you aren't sure: it is vapourI am sure it works on the prototype, and am quite confident it will work on the production model as well. I don't know how the mechanism behind it works, but I do know the code put into the FPGA using the MSX-DOS tool will only start to function after a reboot of the One Chip MSX.

By Ivan

Ascended (9305)

Ivan의 아바타

15-07-2005, 21:12

How fun this is.

In the eigthties/nineties nobody could opine about ASCII's steps in MSX development.

Now thanks to the Internet everybody is opining and ASCII, MSX Association and Bazix are there hearing.

Je, je, je.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6267)

mars2000you의 아바타

20-07-2005, 19:44

The situation of the pre-orders is not good :

http://ken.akari-house.net/1chipMSX.html

Translation :

Single-chip MSX sale discontinuance warning is being announced officially.

It is likely to become sale certain discontinuance during this month (On around July 29).

The number of reservation 2206 (:+22 compared with the day before)

.....

Taking a pessimistic view value 2438 (:+15 compared with the day before)
Standard value 3074 (:-35 compared with the day before)
Optimism value 3846 (:-19 compared with the day before)
Super-optimism value 5485 (:-61 compared with the day before)

- When the super-optimism value becomes less than 5000, it becomes sale certain discontinuance.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (6267)

mars2000you의 아바타

20-07-2005, 19:45

(sorry, double post)

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