YM-2413 real vs emulated

페이지 1/4
| 2 | 3 | 4

By hukuru

Supporter (2)

hukuru의 아바타

19-08-2020, 10:56

Hi all.

I have seen that 8bits4ever has a FM-PAK with real Yamaha YM-2413 FM chip. Do you think is worth to have the real chip? Or emulation is good enough with no real difference?

Because if no difference at all, then I would go for Carnivore 2, or wait for MSXVR.

Thanks a lot.

Login or 등록 to post comments

By Parn

Hero (608)

Parn의 아바타

19-08-2020, 14:48

Well, those three are very different approaches. And "good enough" isn't really compatible with "no real difference". So there are differences, and those three sound different from each other. And nowadays both software emulation (like used in MSXVR) and FPGA reimplementation (like that of Carnivore 2) are so advanced that most people can only tell them apart due to their different sound circuits.

I mean, even real MSX models with built-in FM chips don't sound the same compared to each other. If in doubt, I would go with the Carnivore 2 because it not only provides FM sound, but also a lot of cool and useful stuff too, unlike a dedicated FM cartridge. Plus those FM cartridges can also have wildly different sound if you compare two of those made by different manufacturers, so it's not a given that you'll have good sound even with a real chip (not that I have any reason to believe 8bits4ever's FM-PAK isn't good).

The MSXVR, on the other part, is a glorified emulator, so if you are interested on it because of its sound, there's no reason for you to wait for it, just fire up OpenMSX and be happy. Wink

By Pac

Guardian (5918)

Pac의 아바타

19-08-2020, 17:04

That's the question... What do you need? An FM-PAC cartridge? A combo cartridge like Carnivore? Or a full computer?

By AxelStone

Prophet (2765)

AxelStone의 아바타

19-08-2020, 17:59

FM, SCC, PSG... no real diferences between real and emulated or implementated. As said @Parn, even different MSX has different sound, so really there is no a reference, each machine has its own sound.

Enjoy all of them.

By hukuru

Supporter (2)

hukuru의 아바타

19-08-2020, 18:14

Full computer I don't need one, I currently have a MSX2 with SD mapper megaram 512Kb. I just want to play some games with the nicest sound.

Thanks for the replies.

By Grauw

Ascended (9379)

Grauw의 아바타

19-08-2020, 18:26

I don’t think FPGA implementations of the YM2413 OPLL are accurate enough to support PCM playback currently. Only recently the Nuked.YKT OPLL emulation core became available for PC (included in openMSX 16.0), it is the only one accurate enough, and although it is written in a style that it can be ported to FPGA I don’t think that has been done yet.

The Nuked.YKT core is GPL licensed so incompatible with MSXVR (which is closed source), however of course they can adjust their emulation to match it.

hukuru wrote:

Full computer I don't need one, I currently have a MSX2 with SD mapper megaram 512Kb. I just want to play some games with the nicest sound.

For that purpose I think a Carnivore2 will be entirely sufficient.

By sdsnatcher73

Paragon (1196)

sdsnatcher73의 아바타

20-08-2020, 10:22

Well personally I do hear a difference between the real and fpga versions. Emulation is pretty much on par for use in games. While I do hear the difference, and prefer the real thing on an MSX with a good mixer or a cart with audio out, the C2 does not sound bad at all.

By Pencioner

Scribe (1194)

Pencioner의 아바타

20-08-2020, 10:35

sdsnatcher73 wrote:

While I do hear the difference, and prefer the real thing on an MSX with a good mixer or a cart with audio out, the C2 does not sound bad at all.

At this point it is not about being bad or good, this is more like being different, and a matter of taste. That's the same as if you have two pianos (of same quality), both of them sounds good but a little bit different, so there's a matter of your choice and taste Smile I bet if there were a competition for having the best sounding MSX-MUSIC we would have even more different implementations Smile

By AxelStone

Prophet (2765)

AxelStone의 아바타

20-08-2020, 11:17

Pencioner wrote:

At this point it is not about being bad or good, this is more like being different, and a matter of taste. That's the same as if you have two pianos (of same quality), both of them sounds good but a little bit different, so there's a matter of your choice and taste Smile I bet if there were a competition for having the best sounding MSX-MUSIC we would have even more different implementations Smile

That's the point, as I said before there no exists a "reference MSX" because each one has a different sound. A simple test, play Konami SCC games on Sony and Philips, they sound really different because of PSG in Philips machines is a custom Philips chip. I really think that the real difference is the mixer itself, the noise introduced by each MSX model, so once again, no reference model exists.

Personally I prefer pure FPGA implementation (Zemmix, One Chip) because of cristal clear sound without electrical noise.

By Wild_Penguin

Hero (616)

Wild_Penguin의 아바타

20-08-2020, 12:55

Well, sometimes FPGA implementation(/emulations) can sound noticeably different. I've noticed this purely on PSG.

I was playing Barney Stormer (so pure PSG) on a real MSX via MFRSCC+SD's internal PSG. I noticed some weird artifacts (high pitched harmonic distortions); they were faint, and not there with a real PSG. I presume they may have something to do with the internal mixing of sources / volume adjustment / mixing rate, before D/A conversion. I've heard the same issue on the Zemmix Neo's PSG (IIRC). But It's been a while, so I should probably confirm I can still hear it; also the firmware on the Zemmix Neo has been upgraded since then many times (and also the PSG / handling of audio might have been changed).

It is not immersion breaking for me personally, unless I really concentrate on listening on the artifact. But people might have different sensitivity to it...

[OT]
Same thing applies many things in some way emulating(or mimicking) something real; I've noticed similar (from user point of view, not necessarily technically) issues with MP3 codecs, way back when storage space was actually a factor which needed to be considered when storing music. It was (often) recommended to use joint stereo encoding settings, because that way (in theory) a greater quality version of the original sound can be reconstructed from the limited bit rate available. However, certain joint stereo algorithms caused very noticeable and annoying artifacts into the sound, but only in some rare instances (perhaps after some effect to cause certain kind of stereo effect was used while mastering?). I found it very disturbing when listening to music. I also noticed the same issue with many MP3s which I've ... (ehm) acquired from... (ehm) internet Friends back then. That was one reason I stopped this practice (since some of these internet friends were apparently deaf to these artifacts and still used these bad algorithms even after storage space became cheap, and there was no reason to), but decided to encode my music myself straight from source. IIRC I noticed certain artist's albums were more prone to these artifacts; noticed it very commonly with Abba and Eric Clapton's recordings.
[/OT]

Sorry for veering off-topic. Point being: With the emulated implementations, any artifacts which people might actually hear are very rare, and those which can break immersion / affect the experience in a noticeably negative way, are even rarer. People might be sensitive to different kind of artifacts, though. I'd look at other features and choose the expansion which seems most usable.

By sdsnatcher73

Paragon (1196)

sdsnatcher73의 아바타

20-08-2020, 17:12

Yes Wild_Penguim that is right the experience of the games is what is important and that is great with either YM2413. Real or FPGA!

페이지 1/4
| 2 | 3 | 4