MSXdev'05 - Coming soon

by snout on 13-08-2004, 14:39
Topic: Development
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Yesterday the extremely succesful MSXdev'04 competition was closed. The competition, that ran for 6 months, resulted in 16 new 8kB MSX1 games. Robsy had already announced there would be a follow-up in 2005, of which he has just disclosed the first details on the MSXposse forums. In this forum thread he has revealed the first information on MSXdev'05, which will be announced in the near future. The new MSXdev will, like the previous two editions, be focussed on MSX1 games. This time the limit of the game-size has been set to 16kB, twice the size of the MSXdev'04 competition. More details will be disclosed on Robsy's MSX workshop soon.

Relevant link: Robsy's MSX workshop

Comments (28)

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

13-08-2004, 14:41

Again a crappy limit... I guess I won't be entering AGAIN...
Raise it to SCC 1Mbit and I will think about it.

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

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13-08-2004, 14:50

And what about the game project you told me at #msxdev? Smile It will not fit in 16KB?. C'mon GuyveR, show us your power in the MSXdev05! Smile

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

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13-08-2004, 15:02

I agree with Guyver here... I'd love to give this a try, but I think the requirements are far too restrictive... Too bad, but it excludes a whole generation of MSX programmers...

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9567)

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13-08-2004, 15:05

nemesis 3, salamander etc. explored the full msx1 .. nothing wrong with that .. so raise the mem specs!

Or are you/robsy affraid that 'bigger' projects will eventually lead to canceled projects, because they're too big ?

By Thom

Champion (453)

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13-08-2004, 15:18

Or are you/robsy affraid that 'bigger' projects will eventually lead to canceled projects, because they're too big ?
Well, that's what will happen, isn't it?

Ironically, some people always moan about today's pc programmers. In their opinion most pc programmers can't code because they don't have to worry about limits.

Besides, small games are refreshing nowadays. Who got still the time to play-through a 50+ hours RPG? I haven't, but I do like to have a quick go at a small but entertaining game. Look at Picture Puzzle, it's genious.

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

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13-08-2004, 15:25

wolf_:"Or are you/robsy affraid that 'bigger' projects will eventually lead to canceled projects, because they're too big?"

It could be... but don't be so negative, dudes!, look at "Pippols", "Hyper Rally", "Sky Jaguar"... the step from 8KB to 16KB is pretty big, if you think about it for a while. Smile Give MSXdev05 a try, men, it's better to go little by little than go running and fall to the ground. Smile -that's what I think-

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9567)

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13-08-2004, 15:28

some ppl take that time Smile

Anyway .. I'm not just talking about the time you need to play it, I'm also referring to artwork that occupies space.

Take that Seleniak shooter for example. Add somemore complex enemy-paths, more gfx.. -ok, you'll loose the current smooth multilayer stuff- .. and basically have a vertical nemesis.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9567)

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13-08-2004, 15:30

Viejo, I don't try to be negative .. the current result of '04 was very nice.. and as i said, 3 games really stand out imho. It's just that those limits are a limit for audio/visual artwork.

By Grauw

Enlighted (5838)

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13-08-2004, 15:33

"play-through a 50+ hours RPG"

Ummm... Yes please! ^_^ I love RPG's.

Anyways, back to msxdev'05... I agree there is probably some truth in the "'bigger' projects will eventually lead to canceled projects" line of thought. But I don't know how much that will be the case, and if I look at the massive amount of small games Karoshi created, it makes me wonder how cool a big game from their hands would be Smile.

On a sidenote, some people talked about the number of Spanish participants compared to the Dutch... I think it probably has something to do with those limits, as pretty much the entire Dutch scene has been focused on MSX2... I have barely seen any new amateur production for MSX1 (excluding Triplex and Nosh ;p) ever since I started going to MSX fairs in the early nineties. I don't really feel like creating an MSX1 game, but something for MSX2... it would be worth thinking about Smile.

But ah well, the limits have been set, so I guess that's the way it will be. I hope we can look forward to a slew of new MSX1 games again next year! And perhaps the year after...

~Grauw

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

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13-08-2004, 15:37

You're right, _wolf. But there's a lot of space for musics and gfx in 16KB. All right, there is MORE space in a 2MegaROM, but I can imagine the design process of an RPG using 256Kb, and it can *probably* take a year. I design educational games for Windows at work with a lotta prerendered videos, digital music and fx, and it takes various musicians, 3d designers, 2d designers, various creatives for the concepts (I work as Creative Director) and so on... it's sad, but it could be difficult to asumme the amount of work for a grand MegaROM production and then make it freeware. Not for Karoshi, we'll surely make freeware big MegaROMs in the future, but it's pretty excesive for a contest where your creation will become freeware to make a big production... again, that's what i think.

By karloch

Paragon (1950)

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13-08-2004, 15:40

In the current results of hispamsx.org poll about restrictions for MSXdev '05, most of people agree to put a MSX 1 with 64 kB RAM as hardware limitaton, followed by MSX 2 64/128 kB with any sound chip.

About the ROM size, first place for now is for 64 kB size, followed by 32 kB and by "Without limitations, just like MRC Challenge".

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

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13-08-2004, 15:45

dudes!, look at "Pippols", "Hyper Rally", "Sky Jaguar"
I prefer F1-Spirit and Nemesis 2...

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

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13-08-2004, 15:47

but don't be so negative, dudes!
It's the limitations that are negative!
It restricts our creative possibilities!!!

By Thom

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13-08-2004, 16:27

It's the limitations that are negative!
It restricts our creative possibilities!!!

Not necessarily. Look at what happens with the modern consoles. The capacity of storage mediums increases loads and loads every cycle (about 5 years) and Sony has even anounced that they will use BlueRay discs for their upcoming PS3 console, which means developers will be able to store about a zillion GB's. However, this will inevitably lead to loads and loads of FMV. I don't think FMV is the epitome of creativity. However, trying to cramp as much Graphics and sounds and nifty code into 16kb is.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9567)

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13-08-2004, 16:38

thom .. right .. however, you're comparing apples with pears now Smile FMV is nice for intros/endtros etc. Right here we're talking about the actual game. No matter how creative you are, there's always a certain limit what the best creative wizzard can do. So, asking for more mem is not really uncreative, don't you think so? It doesn't make ppl lazy, it just opens more options for additional creativiness!

By pitpan

Prophet (3095)

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13-08-2004, 16:48

I am still considering what will be the final rules for MSXdev'05, but the 16 KB limit was the prefered size by the programmers that have participated in this edition. So, as I know that they will produce more games, and not more "cancelled projects", I will go on with this size.

You can always program whatever you want without restrictions and publish it anywhere, but MSXdev'0x is focused on first generation MSX computers and it aims for compatibility. If you produce a megaROM, it won't be possible to load it in a MSX1 computer without building the real cartridge.

I admit that 8 KB is very restrictive, but there have been 16 games. In the previous edition, MSXdev'03, the limit was 32 KB, and only 3 games entered: one of 32 KB and two of 16 KB, one of them not finished.

So, I guess that size DOES matter. 16 KB should be enough for complete games. Most Konami's games are 16 KB, and they are great.

By Imanok

Paragon (1109)

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13-08-2004, 16:56

If you produce a megaROM, it won't be possible to load it in a MSX1 computer without building the real cartridge.
Well... that's not totally true... what about flashrom cartridges?

By spl

Paragon (1435)

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13-08-2004, 19:40

You are right Imanok, but a CD-R is more popular and cheaper than a flash rom. Now also the speed thanks to waveR v3 is amazing.

Yours,

Xenon

By Ivan

Ascended (8983)

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13-08-2004, 22:38

The bigger the projects are, the sooner they get cancelled.

So I like the contest limitations (=more games).

By Manuel

Ascended (13301)

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13-08-2004, 23:20

(Nitpicking mode: Grauw, you mean No Fuss, and not Nosh... ;-)

By snout

Ambassador (15167)

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14-08-2004, 00:43

I think this means Grauw has to work extra hard on his entry for the Bounce Challenge, otherwise André and Maarten are bound to make his entry lose Tongue Tongue

By ricbit

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14-08-2004, 00:52

I would like to see even more restrictive compos in the future. I'm thinking in 4kb contest as the one in http://www.ffd2.com/minigame/ (you can apply msx games in this one, I'm going to). Other fun compos would be 256-byte demos, basic two-liners, another fun one could be a pascal contest where the source must fit in a 80x24 screen.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

14-08-2004, 01:31

Sure, ricbit, such compo's are fun.
But the MSX scene has always differentiated itself from all the other computer scenes by having a large amateur scene making really hi-profile games, often bordering or exceeding commercial-quality.
I hold great value to that part of the MSX scene, and while I personally would enjoy challenges like you suggest, I know it would mean that I would have less time to spend on large, involving MSX games.

By konamiman

Paladin (912)

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14-08-2004, 10:41

What about two game categories in the competition?

1: Games up to 16K.
2: Games up to 64K or even 128K.

By pitpan

Prophet (3095)

pitpan's picture

14-08-2004, 12:08

I have been considering all the comments received here and in hispaMSX mailing list, and I think that the best solution will be one contest, MSXdev'05, with different categories: up to 16 KB ROM, up to 32 KB ROM and BASIC ROM games. Of course, there will be a unified compo, the best game.

What do you think about this? With this, every developer could adjust its time and effort to the size that fits best his project.

Regards,

Edward Robsy

By Grauw

Enlighted (5838)

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14-08-2004, 17:56

manuel: ops... Smile
snout: what Bounce entry? Well, uh, I could think about it...
pitpan: sounds good to me.

By dioniso

Champion (457)

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14-08-2004, 20:23

Pitpan: "What do you think about this?"

In my humble opinion, taking into account all the comments, I think there should be 3 categories:

1-BASIC.
2-Up to 16 or 32k ROM.
3-No restrictions but MSX1; any size, any format: 32k, 64k, 128k, ... ROM, BIN, COM.

I think, this way, no one would have an excuse and the number of games should be bigger. We have to listen to everybody, since every one belongs to this community, the MSX Scene. It's like expanding the perspectives of the MSXDev.

Regards.

By snout

Ambassador (15167)

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14-08-2004, 22:25

Well, to me increasing the limits of the MSXdev competitions step by step makes sense. Going from 8kB to 64kB already is a fairly large step (8 times as much memory available!). This might sound a bit odd though, coming from an MRC admin who have so far only organized nearly-no-limits-at-all challenges Wink

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