#msxdev Compo 2012 judges reports online, voting opened!

#msxdev Compo 2012 judges reports online, voting opened!

by syn on 29-01-2013, 13:29
Topic: Challenges
Languages:

After the #msxdev 2012 competition's deadline closed, the competitors in the first edition of the #msxdev Compo had a bit less than a month to play, watch and enjoy the entries from the other contestants; and of course give some healthy criticism in the form of a report. The time for turning in those reports had expired yesterday evening and now the voting round is officially open!

The reports can be found on the #msxdev 2012 results page for potential voters to take into consideration, or for those who are just curious to read what the competitors have to say about their competition. The reports show enthusiasm and positivity, combined with constructive criticism and well-meant critique.

People who are interested in having a say in the outcome of the contest, have till the end of the January to cast a vote by visiting the #msxdev chatroom on the Rizon IRC network. Please note that voting via the chat channel is the only way as per the compo's rules.

Relevant link: #msxdev on Rizon

Comments (22)

By FiXato

Scribe (1515)

FiXato's picture

29-01-2013, 21:02

My votes are in at least Big smile
How about yours?

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

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30-01-2013, 19:17

i did cant wait to see who won

By FiXato

Scribe (1515)

FiXato's picture

30-01-2013, 20:23

So far it looks like you might come out a winner Lord Zett. Smile

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

Lord_Zett's picture

30-01-2013, 21:51

yeah not lot of ppl voted thats sad. but if i win thats great.

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5470)

mars2000you's picture

30-01-2013, 22:16

I will not vote for five reasons :
- for me, it's impossible to compare apples (= games) and pears (= demos) because you can only enjoy a demo, you can't play it as a game, even if there are interactive (hidden) elements
- the absence of general rules and cotations in the judges' comments does not help really, it adds confusion and shows that comparing games and demos is absurd
- it does not seem serious to allow 5 differents ways of voting (top 3, top 4, top 5, top 6, top 7) because it means zero point for 1 to 4 games/demos when you don't choose to give a top 7
- I dislike the way the vote must be done on an IRC channel; a public poll could have been added on the official website
- when some people (like Artrag or myself) have been insulted here or elsewhere by a leading figure of the contest, why should I vote ?

Now, my personal feeling is that the final battle is between Inferno and Pixiedust : I prefer Inferno, but the game is not complete and there are some bugs as noticed by the judges; Pixiedust does not have these problems, actually it's the only real finished game of the contest (Gamecast Entertainment games are disqualified for ripped graphics and musics).

By Vampier

Prophet (2288)

Vampier's picture

30-01-2013, 22:42

Gamecast Entertainment is selling his MSX stuff

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

Lord_Zett's picture

30-01-2013, 22:53

hmmm yep a foting form on the site was a nicer idea.

@vampier that toshiba is nice....

By syn

Paragon (1915)

syn's picture

31-01-2013, 00:07

@mars:
Point 1: But you can vote for complexity, technical brilliance, graphical astonishments, fantastic soundtrack in a demo. I dont know about you but I think I can recognize quality, or entertainment in a product. Actually I liked no pressure a lot, if it was a bit more varied, a bit longer with interesting effects and maybe more different songs I would have voted it as winner.

Point 2: There were no strict rullings in how the judges report had to be written, although a few suggestions were made for those who wanted to use them. You can view them more as a short review. Small comments, critizing, tips, small pat on the back, whatever you want to call it. intended to encourage the competitors to improve themselves, give them confidence for future projects, and learn what they can do better next time. They are NOT officlal judges reviews. They have no direct influence on the final results, since its the voting alone that determines the outcome, although voters can read them and they can, if they want to, use the judges' opinions for their rankings.

Point 3: If someone doesnt vote for lower ranked, it does mean he or she doesn't feel like those entries deserve any points anyway. But yes, maybe this is something to think/talk about.

Point 4: I dont see the problem, you just click the link, shout "My vote for the compo is 1. some game, 2. some demo, 3 some xxx etc" and you are done. Also since most of the competitors visit the channel on a regular basis you can actually get in touch with them directly and encourage them in forms of tips/advice if you want. Or you can stick around and discuss random msx topics Wink.

Point 5: I am aware of this, and I wouldn't hold it against you if you choose not to vote. But, you have to remember a competion is not just one person. The compo was actually a group effort from ppl from the chatroom if I am correct (I wasn't really there when it took shape).

By FiXato

Scribe (1515)

FiXato's picture

30-01-2013, 23:50

Imho it's quite possible to compare demos with games.
For instance, while the current demos perhaps don't have a lot of interaction, it's certainly not impossible. Finding all the hidden features for instance can be quite an interesting and perhaps challenging element of a demo.
Furthermore, demos and games share most of the aspects on which you can judge them, namely the graphics, audio (both background music as perhaps sound effects) and most of all: how clever the coding is; in a contest like #msxdev (which seems to focus on *developing*) this is a very important aspect. For instance, even though Barebone Bullets is far from a finished product, I do rate it higher than Baruko because its programming is so much better. BB has far more moving objects in the screen and runs much smoother than Baruko, which is slow and has a tendency to leave the machine hanging. The developer of BB, syn, actually took the effort to learn assembly, while Baruko's developer seems to have spent most of his time finding existing code and media to slightly adapt to his needs.

As for voting: a public vote via a website has a too big a chance for vote manipulation imho. I really don't mind casting a vote through IRC. A web-based IRC client is provided, and the channel is public, so it's not like it's a locked down way to vote limited to just a select few.
As for your personal issues with GuyveR800: I really don't see why it should prevent you from voting. Just join the channel, announce your vote, and leave the channel again if you must. Can all be done in less than a minute; no interaction with any person needed at all.

The different voting options: just interpret not voting for a game as giving them zero points. I see no problems with that. How is it different from ranking them as a shared last place? Some products just outright suck and don't deserve any points. Tongue

By syn

Paragon (1915)

syn's picture

31-01-2013, 00:52

mars2000you wrote:

- it does not seem serious to allow 5 differents ways of voting (top 3, top 4, top 5, top 6, top 7) because it means zero point for 1 to 4 games/demos when you don't choose to give a top 7

As promised in my previous post, I had taken the time to talk about this with the organizers of the compo. As it turns out, the winner is determined by a mathematical algorithm that can deal with such a voting structure. So although it would be nice IF people gave a top 7 ranking, it is not REQUIRED, and it would not affect the results if they don't.

I hope this answers any questions and clears up any doubts you had regarding this. Wink

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5470)

mars2000you's picture

31-01-2013, 01:56

Thanks, Syn, for all these explanations.

I didn't have precised that my 5 reasons were actually ranked from the most important to the less important. So, personal problem with one leading figure of the contest is only the last straw, not the main reason. I will not insist on reasons 3 and 4, that's only personal preferences (and for Fixato : even bad games can get some little points, but that's just my opinion).

Maybe you don't know it, but I have some experience as co-organizer and co-judge of many MSX games contests : Passion MSX2 Contests (2 editions), MSXdev' contests (2006-2011 editions -judge only in 2010 and 2011). So, I think I've a good experience on this matter and I'm deceived by the fact that the acquired experience to even still better judge the games is lost in the way the #msxdev compo has decided to follow.

Do you know that the criteria used to judge the games submitted to the above mentioned contests had actually been fixed in 2005 by the same leading figure of the contest who has insulted Artrag and myself here or elsewhere ? Yes, this very talentuous coder was the only judge of the MSXdev'05 contest and as the criteria he has fixed were excellent, they have been re-used in next contests (until 2011) with some slight changes.

And suddenly for another contest where the influence and the help of this coder is still very important, these criteria are lost, even if there are "recommandations" in the rules. Indeed, the "non-official" judges (as you present them) have given their reviews with many differences, especially when it concerns cotations : no any cotation, only a general cotation, or, what seems me better, detailed cotations. Even if only the vote will determine the ranking, the disorder by absence of rules in the "non-official" cotations gives a bad perspective to the contest, almost a feeling of chaos, something I've never felt in my experience with the Passion MSX2 or MSXdev contests. I'm pretty sure that many visitors of the #msxdev compo website share the same bad feeling.

What concerns demos (and music disks), well, I can really appreciate them in all their aspects. Actually, it's even what I generally prefer in the MSX universe and that's one of the reasons why blueMSX gives so much importance to the sound quality, the other reason is the fact that Daniel Vik, main coder, is also a musician. I remember also all the time that I've tested many demos to improve the emulator, and it includes of course screensplits. So, I know perfectly how to appreciate demos.

But there's a problem you don't seem to see : gamers are a big majority in the MSX scene (also on other scenes) and demo fans are a small minority. With a public poll or vote, demos don't have any chance to win against games, at least if the games are not Gamecast Entertainment products ! It's not fair to compare demos and games, it should be better to have 2 votes, one for the best game, one for the best demo.

Added to that, my personal feeling, I don't have the same approach with games and with demos. Just an exemple : my preferred game is Maze Of Galious, my preferred demo is Unknown Reality, but I can't say if I prefer the game or the demo, they are for me in 2 apart worlds and only the perpetual changes in my "floating" personality (I'm Fishes) will give preference at one moment to the game and at another moment to the demo. I need both for my fun, but not at the same moment with the same mind.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

31-01-2013, 08:31

@mars2000you:
Many in the MSX developers community do not like what you are doing. You are raping their products! Stop distributing pre-patched shit, stop distributing hacked up shit (BAS2ROM, DSK2ROM etc) and stop making all contests into a single pile of anonymous cheese!! I've told you many times, you are demotivating many developers and thereby killing the MSX scene. Your constant refusal to accept this reality is why you are being insulted, and will continue to be insulted until the end of time.

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

31-01-2013, 09:14

BTW, I think some of the criteria used by Flying Bytes in their report is a good indication to how products of different types can be listed in order of preference.

The point is there doesn't have to be a direct comparison, just a general preference for one product to another. While it is true I created the criteria for MSXdev'xx contests in MSXdev'05, it is also the case that my method extended beyond criteria, and by attaching points on the criteria and focussing 100% on them in subsequent contests, the whole point of my method was lost. I've lamented this fact many times, especially when the points system resulted in undeserved positions for some games.

The #msxdev Compo just had its first edition. Like the website said, the rules are still in flux, the procedures are being considered, and the results are evaluated. But one thing that will not change, is the ranked voting method. While you are spreading FUD about it, because you do not understand it, it is widely considered (and implemented in real world democracies) to be the most fair way of voting a set of winners, even if the options are in different categories.

#msxdev Compo 2012 might have been a bit ad-hoc at times, because it's the first edition and almost everybody involved has also been competitor, it has certainly NOT been chaotic.

Now, if because of your (among others') FUD, there won't be enough votes to be considered a good sample, it might become a bit chaotic because the organization will have to come up with a different plan to result in a fair winner.

@everyone:
Come on people! Voting is open until midnight today. Some participants are already getting demotivated because nobody seems to care who will win or not. Show your support to the competitors that spent months of their time to bring you something enjoyable, by taking 5 minutes of your time to click the link and type your preferred ranking!

By Latok

msx guru (3642)

Latok's picture

31-01-2013, 10:27

I'd like to support GuyveR800 his call for voting. If you followed the #msxdev compo and even looked at the entries, I also kindly ask you to vote, would be awesome :)

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

Lord_Zett's picture

31-01-2013, 18:44

yeah ppl vote for pd! Big smile

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

Lord_Zett's picture

31-01-2013, 18:45

shit my status changed i wanna be a master not a Champion Som MRC GUY CHANGE THAT AND LOCK IT FOR ME!

By AxelF

Champion (339)

AxelF's picture

07-02-2013, 19:29

Any news on the final results yet, or will it remain undecided ?

By Lord_Zett

Paladin (807)

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08-02-2013, 05:26

i dont know.....

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

08-02-2013, 10:52

I think we need an MRC poll to decide.

By Hydragon

Paladin (681)

Hydragon's picture

08-02-2013, 11:24

Huey wrote:

I think we need an MRC poll to decide.

I don't think an MRC Poll will give a decent result. Better put this poll idea to the ones organising the competition.

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

08-02-2013, 11:27

Maybe. Just as long as it is dumbass proof. Tongue

By FiXato

Scribe (1515)

FiXato's picture

08-02-2013, 14:51

Nothing's going to stop anyone from holding their own poll, but the results will never be the 'official winner of #msxdev 2012'.