Source: MSXblog

About a month ago, Kai Magazine have published two screenshots of their current project: a full-fledged port of LucasArts classic point-and-click game The Secret of Monkey Island for MSX2. Over the years, there has been quite some speculation whether or not a SCUMM based game would ever make its way to MSX - we even ran a poll on it and it looks like it's finally going to happen. All we have for now, though, is a set of two screenshots.

Relevant link: Kai Magazine

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  • The Secret of Monkey Island in development for MSX2
  • The Secret of Monkey Island in development for MSX2

Comments (119)

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

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13-12-2014, 15:42

Smile

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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13-12-2014, 17:28

I want it on cart Big smile

By hap

Paragon (2008)

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13-12-2014, 18:50

And if it's on the SCUMM engine, I want it on SCUMMVM Big smile
Is it?

By Randam

Paladin (745)

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13-12-2014, 19:02

This is very good news! really would like a game like this on msx.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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13-12-2014, 21:46

Hello Msx brothers, I am Oscar Kenneth from Kai Magazine.

We are in fact developing an engine from zero, similar to the Scumm engine, but completelly from scratch.
The MSX2 is not capable to support an engine like Scumm v4.0 (the Scumm engine version of monkey island 1), not by a long shot, so we have to adapt every single graphic and code to be able to run something very similar on our beloved MSX2.

So, to clarify, this is not a port of the Scumm engine (which would be totally legal) but a port of the actual game itself (which is not tecnically legal unless we pay the licensing of the product, which belongs to Disney, and it is VERY expensive).

So, the good news is, the msx2 is capable to enjoy a game such monkey island 1 and similar, and we will create a project/demo to present to the msx comunity, to see if we can raise enough interest to engage in such a project (which development would take about an entire year), but it is a long shot.

Also, the legal issues could be a huge problem as well, so we are not trying to fool anyone. The odds are against us.
We just want to show that it is technically possible, and see what happens beyond this point.
But please do not keep your hopes up. As I said, due to legal reasons, it is a long shot.

Regards:
Oscar Kenneth

By Jorito

Mr. Ambassadors (1720)

Jorito's picture

13-12-2014, 22:19

Sweet!

And legal wise, with the demise of LucasArts and these games being so old they could be considered abandonware, I have some hopes for it staying in the clear Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

13-12-2014, 22:43

Jorito wrote:

Sweet!

And legal wise, with the demise of LucasArts and these games being so old they could be considered abandonware, I have some hopes for it staying in the clear Smile

I thought so myself, but I investigated in depth:

Lucas Arts has not disappeared, belongs to Disney, and acts only as a "Licenser": a company which exclusivelly sells licenses of their products.
Also, Monkey island is far from being abandonware, since just 2 or 3 years ago an HD remake was made for PC and Iphone/Ipad.
Also, "telltale games. inc" purchased the license to make an episodic sequel of the series, published over the last few years for all platforms.

You can consult some of this facts on Wikipedia.

Crying

By syn

Paragon (1600)

syn's picture

13-12-2014, 22:46

Good stuff! Looking forward to the end result!

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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13-12-2014, 22:48

I do not think they would care of 100 copies of the games

By sergiovl

Rookie (17)

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14-12-2014, 01:27

Fantastic job! Looking forward to the final result ...

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

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14-12-2014, 01:47

Now thats the spirit Kai. Development may take you years or even longer but those who are persistent enough prevail. I wish you the best in succeeding. Just keep your project silent and quiet then no one of disney/lucas will notice and you can at least finish the project.

By Marq

Champion (386)

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14-12-2014, 10:35

This will be a great feat if it indeed will be realized.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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14-12-2014, 10:46

Thank you all for your support Big smile

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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14-12-2014, 11:09

What are the problems in porting Scumm v4.0 to z80 ? Is it in C, C++ or something else ?
Can I help somehow ?
The Scumm engine is used also in other games, it would be great to get full compatibility with it and port also other games...

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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14-12-2014, 11:18

ARTRAG wrote:

What are the problems in porting Scumm v4.0 to z80 ? Is it in C, C++ or something else ?
Can I help somehow ?
The Scumm engine is used also in other games, it would be great to get full compatibility with it and port also other games...

Hello, the problem is Scumm v4 requieriments. Those are WAY too superior for an msx2 to handle, in all hardware aspects.
Take a look at the Scumm v4 hardware requieriments, and compere those to the MSX 2 hardware specs.

By GuilianSeed

Master (147)

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14-12-2014, 13:05

Smile Smile Smile

By Manuel

Ascended (13295)

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14-12-2014, 14:40

what *are* the requirements you speak about?

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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14-12-2014, 15:55

Manuel wrote:

what *are* the requirements you speak about?

For the original version are:

PC System Requirements

Original
MS-DOS 5.0 or higher
1 Mb of EMS required (2 Mb recommended)
386/33 DX (486 DX recommended)
Sounblaster and 100% compatibles, Adlib, Roland MT 32

You can find this info at:

http://www.giantbomb.com/the-secret-of-monkey-island/3030-3019/

Transleted means:

16 bit processor at 33mhz (msx2 is 8 bit 3,5mhz)
1024k of ram (2048 recommended) Msx2 has 64k or 128k

They made no mention about the video card requeriments, but it needs at least a 320x240 definition with 512k of vram or more (msx2 has 128k of vram)

By fernando.collazo.5682

Master (173)

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14-12-2014, 16:42

DOS Version :

Minimum CPU Class Required 8088 / 8086
Minimum OS Class Required DOS 3.1
Minimum RAM Required 640 KB
Media Type 3.5" Floppy Disk, 5.25" Floppy Disk, CD-ROM
Minimum MSCDEX Required 2.1
Video Modes Supported CGA, EGA, Hercules, MCGA, Tandy / PCjr, VGA
Sound Devices Supported Adlib, Game Blaster, PC Speaker, Roland MT-32 (and LAPC-I), Sound Blaster, Tandy / PCjr
Input Devices Supported Joystick (Analog), Keyboard, Mouse
Number of Players: Offline 1 Player
CD-ROM release requires: 80286 CPU MS-DOS or PC-DOS 3.1

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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14-12-2014, 16:50

The ram requirements have to do with the animations stored in ram. I do not think you can go with a plain 128K ram msx2 for this kind of games. Moreover Monkey island on PC needs HD installation.
You will need for sure a fast modern mass storage device

My idea of the requirements to get a decent game experience:
- a CF/SD drive to store graphic and backgrounds
- 256KB or 512KB of ram to store animations and speed up changes of screen.

By ray2day

Champion (409)

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14-12-2014, 21:00

I really really hope this game is going to happen on MSX2. It is my favourite PC DOS games.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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14-12-2014, 21:12

It could be the first msx game distributed on sd/cf

By Grauw

Enlighted (5816)

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14-12-2014, 21:28

Wasn’t one of the Delta Soft games distributed on CF?

By Marq

Champion (386)

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14-12-2014, 22:10

The game ran ok (if not great) on a plain Atari ST and Amiga 500, too. A standard VGA card doesn't have more than 256k memory, and probably even that wasn't used beyond the 64k frame buffer.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (2435)

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14-12-2014, 22:23

The [url=http://elisoftware.org/index.php?title=Maniac_Mansion_(PC,_3_1/2%22_Disk)_LucasArts_Entertainment_-_1989_USA,_Canada_Release]Maniac Mansion[/url] PC System Requirements were:

Required CPU XT 8088/8086
Required RAM 384K
Supports Mouse Yes
Supports Joystick Yes
Supported Video CGA, EGA, VGA, MCGA, Hercules Monochrome

And yet, it was ported to the NES and C64.

And AFAIK, the original PC requirements for the [url=http://elisoftware.org/index.php?title=Secret_Of_Monkey_Island_(PC,_5_1/4%22_Disk)_LucasArts_Entertainment_-_1990_USA,_Canada_Release]original Monkey Island[/url] were:

PC MS-DOS 3.0
Required CPU AT 286
Required RAM 640K
Supports Mouse Yes
Supports Joystick Yes
Supported Audio Yes
Supported Video CGA, EGA, VGA, Tandy 16 Color

I remember that back then I played Monkey Island on a 8MHz 286 PC with 1MB of RAM, and it played very well. And the 8MHz 286 is much slower than the Turbo-R. Smile

And, here's a video proving that it in fact runs on a 4.77MHz PC-XT. But the performance is just awful. Probably nobody will complain that MSX has slow video access after seeing this. :RNFF:
At least the MSX2 has hardware acceleration to help with the animations.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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14-12-2014, 22:52

Hello, please do some google/wikipedia research on this matter:

Maniac mansion worked on Scumm 1.0 and those are in fact the requeriments for that particular game/engine.

Please note that Monkey island 1 worked on Scumm v4.0 and the requeriments are VERY different.

Please note there are many different Scumm engine versions, and each version has different hardware requeriments

I also remind you that we are not trying to port Maniac Mansion (the first scumm game working with scumm v1.0) but we are going much further: The secret of monkey island, with Scumm v4.0

There is a huge difference among those 2 versions.

Regards.

Regards.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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14-12-2014, 23:01

By the way, the terrible mono-chrome version (2 colors) you are showing on that video which shows unplayable and terrible already requieres a 16 bit processor with 640k of ram (10 times more than msx2)

We are not making a port for turbo-r either, just msx2 with 64 of ram, and 128k of vram.

An Scumm engine port is out of the question.

Also, the engine we are creating will be for:
-64 Mega rom cartridge (8000k)
-installable floppy disk version or micro-sd version for: Hdd, compact flash, sd, micro-sd installation.

There will not be a playable disk version. a Mass Storage Device is requiered. A cartridge version of 8000k will be available for those who lack a mass storage device.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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14-12-2014, 23:30

By tonigalvez

Champion (278)

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15-12-2014, 18:40

Nobody mention, on Amiga Monkey Island runs fine, 7Mhz CPU, maybe on z80 runs good, but with ASM coding.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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15-12-2014, 19:17

tonigalvez wrote:

Nobody mention, on Amiga Monkey Island runs fine, 7Mhz CPU, maybe on z80 runs good, but with ASM coding.

Hello Toni, Amiga had the HARDWARE necessary to run Scumm v4.

No amount of ASM coding will magically create a 16 bit processor on Msx2 nor 10 times more ram, nor 4 times more Vram.

Scumm v4 on msx2 is hardware-wise impossible. That is a fact.

We have to make an adaptation of the game, for the hardware of the msx2.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

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15-12-2014, 19:56

Marq wrote:

The game ran ok (if not great) on a plain Atari ST and Amiga 500, too. A standard VGA card doesn't have more than 256k memory, and probably even that wasn't used beyond the 64k frame buffer.

Toni, it was mentioned already.

By Marq

Champion (386)

Marq's picture

15-12-2014, 19:59

I doubt the Amiga hardware, such as the Blitter, was used much or at all, as the game looked like a direct slow ST/PC port. The Americans were not exactly known for their Amiga-optimized software. But to make the comparison fair, Amiga does have a faster CPU, more memory as default, and faster access to the gfx memory, although MSX2's chunky mode might help some at that.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (2435)

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15-12-2014, 21:12

@Kai Magazine

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing your port. It's a wonderful initiative.

I was just saying that the original game had lower hardware requirements than many expect. And of course I agree with you that it crawls horribly in the 4.77 PC-XT.

But it's your hobby, and your project, so it's only up to you to decide the better way to code it. Keep going! Smile

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (4614)

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16-12-2014, 09:47

I would say running the game directly from SCUMM-file is out of question if play-ability is important at all.
How ever I'm sure MSX can interpret SCUMM script, costume packets and box matrixes without problems. It might be possible to make a converter that takes SCUMM-file and extracts all data, converts & scales backround graphics, objects, actors, Z-planes and MID-music to MSX-format, VOC files to scaled down PCM etc. After that it could be compiled back together and there could be made an engine that runs this custom MSX-converted data.

Would that be easy? NO! Would that be more easy than making everything from scratch? I don't know... it depends how accurate port is planned...

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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16-12-2014, 10:14

Would that script fit into the 64k of ram of an msx2, together with the graphics decompressor and music replayer?
No.

Would the VRAM of the msx hold the amount of scaled images necessary to load all the video data necessary for some areas of the game in which there is a long scroll with front objects (closer to the camera than the character himself)?
Definitivelly not.
To run the first part of the game in which we can control the character (the one with the scumm bar, the port, the bridge, the house, the stones... together with the character frames, items and foreground objects all at the same time, just like the scumm version we would need at least 8 screen 5 pages + 2 more for double buffering.
I know it because I am doing this exact spot myself now.

I repeat: no amount of encoding will magically create more ram or vram.
It is a hardware limitation.

By konamiman

Paladin (912)

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16-12-2014, 10:31

Hi Kai! I wonder what made you return to MSX after so many years, but anyway, you are more than welcome! Smile

Don't let memory requirements halt your development efforts. If your game needs 256K or 512K RAM, make it so! Many people has this amount of memory anyway, and as you say, it is not possible to magically pop up memory space from nowhere.

An interesting but more complex (and expensive!) alternative would be to release the game in a cartridge containing its own RAM. This would make the game to work in any MSX2. Just sayin'!

Looking forward to see this project finished. Looks very promising!

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

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16-12-2014, 11:36

Kai. just go for it. Such very large scale projects cannot be defined, the hardware simply limits you and porting can no longer be a matter of 1:1 conversion. No matter which direction you turn you will always run against the only way of doing things like this: painstakingly remaking the whole thing from scratch.

The only thing that can stop you from eventually pulling this of is giving up. The only things that can cause you to give up is when your team decides to take a run and i am not talking about quiting. more about letting you wait and never admit they have given up. Persistence is all you require if you are a very persistent person then I only have to say: "I am looking forward to play this on MSX" Smile

By NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (4614)

NYYRIKKI's picture

16-12-2014, 14:15

Kai Magazine wrote:

Would that script fit into the 64k of ram of an msx2, together with the graphics decompressor and music replayer?
No.

Would the VRAM of the msx hold the amount of scaled images necessary to load all the video data necessary for some areas of the game in which there is a long scroll with front objects (closer to the camera than the character himself)?
Definitivelly not.

If we think about 64K MSX2 with disk drive then I agree with you totally. If we think ie. MSX tR with 256K RAM and HDD-interface then that is a totally different story. I think talking about VDP internal data copy possibilities with game that has this many large graphical elements is pretty useless because of the mentioned 128K VRAM and fact that V9938/V9958 can't even use the VRAM efficiently. (You have to store the image in same picture layout as it is displayed. AFAIK this was fixed in V9990)

There is one neat trick that you can use with "front objects"... If you set up VRAM for writing and draw the image from RAM you can skip an address by inputting byte from VDP data port in middle of write sequence. This way masking the graphics is just as fast (or slow) as copying data without a mask. This suits best for SCREEN 8. In SCREEN 5 you can use VDP's LMMC-command to transfer data to VRAM, but you still need to keep track of z-mask with CPU. Drawing characters from RAM is slower, but as the scenes are not full of hi speed action with large characters, I think it might be doable... In theory... Practically I find it very unlikely that someone would see so much trouble for optimizing and debugging all the required routines.

You can see this kind of "front objects" ie. in Core Dump

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

16-12-2014, 17:19

Hello Konamiman, thank you for your kind words and your warm welcome Smile
Thank you also for your input. Regarding that (making a scumm engine for turbo-r or msx with 512k of ram), I still think it is not doablesince we need lots of ram and vram to port scumm v4 to the turbo-r and 512k of ram and 128k of vram are not enough.
Even if it would be doable, I'd rather choose to create a port for ANY msx2 instead for a few turbo-r users. I'd like that all msx2 users could enjoy the game. Also, it has more merit. It is a lot more of work, but the actual engine is running perfectly on a plain 64k msx2. Let's not forbid most msx2 users from enjoying this game, just because some want a scumm engine.
This is a very big project, and ALL msx2 users should be able to enjoy it. (that is my humble opinion)

Regarding the cartridge containing a RAM upgrade:
It is WAY too expensive. Each game should be sold WAY too expensive, just to cover the costs.
Just take a look at how much is a cartridge rom with 512 ram upgrade... Add to that all the other costs...
We spoke about this in the spanish forum.
Also, another advantadge of making an 64k msx2 port is we can also create an installable floppy disk version for mass storage devices (megaflashrom sd, scsi, cd, compact flash, hd...) for a very very low cost.

Regarding my return to the msx, it is offtopic and I will not engage here with long explanations.
In a few words: My partner Xavi Sorinas inspired me to come back with the creation of the remakes, and other new projects we are developing.

Thank you again Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

16-12-2014, 17:29

Daemos wrote:

Kai. just go for it. Such very large scale projects cannot be defined, the hardware simply limits you and porting can no longer be a matter of 1:1 conversion. No matter which direction you turn you will always run against the only way of doing things like this: painstakingly remaking the whole thing from scratch.

The only thing that can stop you from eventually pulling this of is giving up. The only things that can cause you to give up is when your team decides to take a run and i am not talking about quiting. more about letting you wait and never admit they have given up. Persistence is all you require if you are a very persistent person then I only have to say: "I am looking forward to play this on MSX" Smile

Thank you Daemos, your words are most inspiring (and refreshingly positive), and I will keep them in mind Wink

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

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16-12-2014, 17:34

Thank you NYYRIKKI for your input and ideas, those are very clever, you are a pro.
But as I said before, I'd rather make a port for plain 64k msx2 so everyone can enjoy it.
It is a lot more of work, but I belive it is worth it.

Anyway, it would be fantastic for the msx community if someone with better knowledge than me could actually pull off an scumm v4 engine for turbo-r. That would be absolutelly awesome, and I encourage anyone to do it.

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

Daemos's picture

16-12-2014, 18:17

Hey kai, if you ever get over your head in this or think about giving up. Remember that there is a crazy guy going around this forum writing a SMW port from scratch that runs on a plain MSX2 64K RAM as well. Your idea can be done. I am 100% sure. Remember that you can run code straight from ROM.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

ARTRAG's picture

17-12-2014, 07:25

Kai go for max specs!
today those who buy carts have a couple of machines at least, and many users would see finally exploited their ram expansions Wink
Consider also that a megarom allows more than cf/sd.
You can execute code and access data from the rom itself

By msd

Paragon (1298)

msd's picture

17-12-2014, 11:48

Going for 64KB msx2, might be a little unnecessary limited. Who is using a 64KB msx2 anyway?

By Grauw

Enlighted (5816)

Grauw's picture

17-12-2014, 13:16

Afaik most Japanese MSX2’s have just 64K, even MSX2+ computers. If the game is distributed on ROM it should be plenty. If it’s distributed on disk though just 64K will be limiting.

(My theory about why so many Japanese machines have just 64K is that, the manufacturers though it would be enough for their machines because at the time software was mostly released in ROM format.)

That said, I’ve got plenty of memory so I wouldn’t object to higher min specs.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

17-12-2014, 17:31

The reasons for doing this engine for 64k are:

1-this game will not work from floppy disks, it will work from mass storage devices, and from cartridge for those who do not have any mass storage device. This way 64k are PLENTY, and EVERYONE can enjoy it.

2-After asking every single msx2 user who purchased our Kai Magazine compilation in cartridge version, what msx models they have, we found A LOT of people with just a 64k msx2 (most of them msx2+ users, but they are A LOT)

If the final engine ends up running with 64k we will not change our minds.

Anyway, in 4 days we will release a demo for sale in cartridge and installable floppy disk (for mass storage devices only) for 64k msx2 computers, and it will blow your minds.
It is a port of the opening demo of a Sega MEGA CD game, and it looks ALMOST identical!! on am MSX2 with 64k!!

You will judge by yourselves shortly.

Regards!

By snout

Ambassador (15167)

snout's picture

17-12-2014, 18:49

Say, euhm... this might be an awkward idea, but maybe it's best to let Kai develop his port of Monkey Island the way he envisions it? It took 24 years before this game made it to MSX, nobody has attempted to port it before...

It might be interesting, as a completely different project, to see how far e.g. a turboR with GFX9K and Moonsound would come at a generic SCUMM implementation (either with or without pre-conversion), but that is way beyond the scope of Kai's great project.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (2435)

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17-12-2014, 18:55

Well said, snout.

Keep up the good work, Oscar! Be sure that you have big fans of the high quality games made by Kai Magazine. I'm certainly one of them.

BTW, would the SegaCD port be Snatcher, by any chance? Big smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

17-12-2014, 19:03

Thank you snout! Wink

sd_snatcher, I will not spoil the surprise Tongue

By Prodatron

Paragon (1778)

Prodatron's picture

17-12-2014, 21:56

This project sounds like a dream! Smile
Trebmint started something like this a few monthes ago:

(It already included the animations)
I am looking forward to the demo in 4 days!

NYYRIKKI wrote:

How ever I'm sure MSX can interpret SCUMM script, costume packets and box matrixes without problems. It might be possible to make a converter that takes SCUMM-file and extracts all data, converts & scales backround graphics, objects, actors, Z-planes and MID-music to MSX-format, VOC files to scaled down PCM etc. After that it could be compiled back together and there could be made an engine that runs this custom MSX-converted data.

This would be a great solution. And yes, still very much to do...

By Ivan

Ascended (8983)

Ivan's picture

17-12-2014, 22:24

Back then (1990) I played the game on my neighbour's PC. The colourful VGA graphics and the animations were amazing for its time.

So go on Oscar! Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

17-12-2014, 23:26

Prodatron, regarding NYYRIKKI great solution:

I do not deny that, if the msx had the hardware, the software could be done.

But as I said many times before, it is a hardware issue:

If the most basic version of the scumm v4 engine takes 640k to run and way more than 128k of vram for a direct-programed version, that is just impossible.
Also, NYYRIKKI solution implies that, added to the basic requieriments, we have to implement a graphics conversion routine, a mud music conversor/player, and a code interpreter, so, an emulation or re-interpretation of the original, in real time, which everyone can understand, requieres WAY more power than the original requieriments.
The end result, even forgetting than 512k of ram and 128k of vram are still not enough (but let's forget about this MAJOR fact for the sake of argument), would be: eternal pauses on each load while decompressing, converting and scaling graphhics, a frame-rate terribilly low, and a midi replayer that would play only 9 channels instead of 16, and lowering the cpu capacity beyond any playable prupposes.
I repeat: all this would happen if magically, you could create more ram and vram on the msx2 or turbo-r, and remembering that re-interpreting and scaling everything (emulating) requieres much more hardware and requeriments than the original, which is already WAY beyond the msx2 capabilities.

In other words:
If someone is sure they can port Scumm v4 to msx, DO IT, please, just DO IT.

By Prodatron

Paragon (1778)

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17-12-2014, 23:54

I was thinking about a converter running on a modern platform like Windows. No need to have this on the MSX. This makes things probably faster and easier without changing the end-result.
IMHO after converting the (graphic) data it doesn't make sense to compare the Scumm V4 requirements with the MSX hardware in a 1:1 way. Most of these little animations aren't a problem for the Z80/VDP, and the amount of graphic data is shrinked down. Of course 64K only would hardly work as well as a floppy disc version.
You don't need as many VRAM as on the PC (MSX isn't VGA) and you can leave sound completely if it makes too much trouble at the beginning. Maybe you stay with the subtitles and add some simple conversions of the background tunes later. But sound shouldn't be a blocker.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-12-2014, 00:23

Prodatron, that is exactly what we are doing:
We are converting and adapting every single graphic on PC to be handled easily on msx, and Xavi Sorinas made a WONDERFULL hand-made, note by note adaptation on FM pac, music module and Moonsound of the musics, so it looks and sounds as good as possible, and as fast as possible on an msx2.
This is the definition of a PORT, and this is what we are doing.

What I am discarting is the possibility of creating a real scumm v4 for msx2 or an emulator of a 16 bit platform into a 8 bit/much lower hardware specs platform (I do not know how to peform magic and bend reality).

Right now we have Guybrush threepwod walking in the screen, with a beautiful fm/music module/moonblaster music in the background.
As of now, it is looking better than the original 16 vga color version, since we are re-converting the graphics from the 256 color version, so:
There is no issue on making a port that looks and sounds like the original pc version (or even better), with 64k of ram.

What I am saying over and over is:
I will not make a scumm v4 engine on 64k msx2 version.

A port fully adapted to the msx2 specs will ALlWAYS look, run and sound much better than an emulation.
Also, this port will run on ANY msx2, so I do not see the problem.

Let's separate the 2 issues:

-Monkey island port
-Scumm v4 port

-we will do a monkey island port for 64k msx2 (or at least the main engine, showing that is perfectly doable) and this is not an easy feat.
-we will NOT do a scumm v4 port (basically because it is not hardware possible, but I encourage anyone to prove me wrong).

By Prodatron

Paragon (1778)

Prodatron's picture

18-12-2014, 01:53

Sounds fantastic! I totally agree, a direct Scumm port wouldn't be possible! It's cool, that you choosed this way of porting Monkey Island to the MSX!

By Metalion

Paladin (906)

Metalion's picture

18-12-2014, 08:21

I agree with Prodatron : it doesn't make sense to compare requirements on PC and MSX using a 1:1 ratio. The architectures are different, the OS work differently, on a different level. Same for interaction with video and sound units. IMHO, we will never know if it is possible to make a SCUMM engine on MSX unless someone tries to do it ...

In the meantime, great kudos to Kai for this extraordinary work he's starting !
I can't wait to see a demo of this thing ...

By iamweasel2

Champion (455)

iamweasel2's picture

18-12-2014, 14:09

I think we should drop the issue of wheter a SCUMMVM in MSX is possible or not. This post should be about KAI's version of Monkey Island. I really support the way they are doing it, by rebuilding it to work as good as possible on MSX. And I don't care if the final result is not exactly the same as the original one. This is the MSX version, that's what makes this port interesting (at least to me). I don't need a 100% faithful conversion, I already have the original game.

That being said, I have one (lame) question and a suggestion:

1) (lame question): Will we see a demo (even if it is just a youtube video) of it working ? I'm really curious to see it. Smile

2) I hope you can add some MSX's jokes (it can be something simple as small graphics in the background making references to MSX or some jokes in the dialog, as they did in the original (IIRC, there's a dialog where he says "tell me something about LOOM")). Wink

Anyway, you are doing a great work, and I really hope you can finish it, MSX deserves a Monkey Island port. Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-12-2014, 15:10

Thank you iamweasel2!

regarding question 1:
Yes, you will see a demo of the final engine working on msx2, but in a month or so, because right now we are busy with the demo we are releasing shortly.

Regarding question 2:
That is in fact an exelent idea, and if the project is finally made, we will indeed do it!

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

18-12-2014, 15:10

Thank you Metalion Smile

By iamweasel2

Champion (455)

iamweasel2's picture

18-12-2014, 15:58

No, THANK YOU Kai, for making this long waited port happen on MSX. Smile

By PingPong

Prophet (2850)

PingPong's picture

18-12-2014, 22:05

Kai Magazine wrote:

Right now we have Guybrush threepwod walking in the screen, with a beautiful fm/music module/moonblaster music in the background.
As of now, it is looking better than the original 16 vga color version, since we are re-converting the graphics from the 256 color version, so:
There is no issue on making a port that looks and sounds like the original pc version (or even better), with 64k of ram.

Please make a video about this and make we wonder too..... Cool

By Manuel

Ascended (13295)

Manuel's picture

18-12-2014, 22:24

Good to separate the game port and a possible SCUMM VM implementation. About the latter:

Kai Magazine wrote:

If the most basic version of the scumm v4 engine takes 640k to run and way more than 128k of vram for a direct-programed version, that is just impossible.
Also, NYYRIKKI solution implies that, added to the basic requieriments, we have to implement a graphics conversion routine, a mud music conversor/player, and a code interpreter, so, an emulation or re-interpretation of the original, in real time, which everyone can understand, requieres WAY more power than the original requieriments.
The end result, even forgetting than 512k of ram and 128k of vram are still not enough (but let's forget about this MAJOR fact for the sake of argument), would be: eternal pauses on each load while decompressing, converting and scaling graphhics, a frame-rate terribilly low, and a midi replayer that would play only 9 channels instead of 16, and lowering the cpu capacity beyond any playable prupposes.

No one suggested to do conversion (scaling, emulating, decompressing, etc.) at real time on the MSX. I think the core of the suggestion was to offline convert everything for ready-to-use on MSX. But as I have no real idea how such a SCUMM VM engine actually works. I'd better shut up Smile

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

19-12-2014, 09:30

Kai, either 64k or 256k... You will sell the same. I think is possible MSX SCUMM scale down port (of course > RAM 64k) . But I think is not possible in (KUN) BASIC.

I'm keen to play/pay that. Good luck and GO for it. Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

19-12-2014, 10:29

In what basis do you think I will sell the same if I do the engine for 256k?

As I said before, when I sold the Kai Compilation I asked every single buyer for his msx models.
Many had only 64k, a lot had 128, and very very few had 256 or 512.

Therefore I base my decision on facts.

Regarding Msx Scumm, asi I said over and over, v4 has a minimum hardware requeriments well ABOVE any msx, including msx turbo r. Video ram and vdp speed for starters.

As I said many many times before, it is a HARDWARE issue, not a software issue, but if anyone thinks it can be done, JUST DO IT!

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

19-12-2014, 11:30

Kai Magazine wrote:

In what basis do you think I will sell the same if I do the engine for 256k?

Almost every "active" msx user has several msx machines, usually ram expanded (internally or externally).
Very few have just a 64k model.
So, imho, it's just a question of taste&will: i like your game and i want to buy it... Or NOT
Wink

Kai Magazine wrote:

As I said many many times before, it is a HARDWARE issue, not a software issue, but if anyone thinks it can be done, JUST DO IT!

100% Agree! Wink Your game, your rules. Smile

By konamiman

Paladin (912)

konamiman's picture

19-12-2014, 11:44

Ok guys, calm down... if Kai thinks this game can target 64K machines, then let him do it that way! The more potential players the better! Smile

I would suggest anyway that the game code could detect whether extra RAM is available, and if so, do some optimizations such as caching/preloading some content. Just a suggestion!

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

19-12-2014, 12:56

Hello Ramones, I realize I sounded very crude in my previous response.
I apologize for that.
Please understand that every time someone suggests this should be done by porting Scumm to msx, or using more ram, etc, they are in fact saying: "this could be done better", and every time I hear that (and it has been A LOT of times) frustrates me and disenourages me of doing it at all.

Regarding your suggestion that my aim is to sell more, please consider the amount of time and work to do this project, and even if ALL the active msx users on the planet purchased the game, the "profit" would never be nearly enough to cover it, not by a long shot.
If we do this is not to make a profit, but to do something that has never done before, and I'd like that everyone (who wants it) could enjoy it.
Please do not focus this issue as a way to sell more or make profit, because this is not the way to make a profit.
The way to make a profit is to create a 48k or 64k msx1 game, put it into a cartridge of 64k which costs 9 or 10 euro, and sell it for 30 euro to all msx1 and msx2 users on the planet.
That is the way to make a profit.

Regarding the "very few have just a 64k model", I did my own research in the matter, I asked every single buyer what models they have, and belive me, there are A LOT of people with 2+ without memory upgrade, and some sony msx2 with 64k of ram.
Anyway, to make a port of Scumm you need 640k of ram and at least 512 k of vram.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

19-12-2014, 12:59

Thank you Konamiman for your suggestion, but as we already stated previously in thsi post, my engine is for mass storage devices and gigarom cartridges only, so there is no need for more ram to cach or preload content.

Please allow me to finish a demo of this (mid/end of January) so you can see the end result.

By Maggoo

Paragon (1161)

Maggoo's picture

19-12-2014, 15:38

Very much looking forward to this project being completed. I always thought this kind of game would look great on MSX2 and looking at previous Kai Magazine work with software sprites, I can think of noone better to do this port.

I don't care how its ported as long as the project is completed and it looks and sounds good :-)

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

19-12-2014, 18:16

Kai Magazine wrote:

Hello Ramones, I realize I sounded very crude in my previous response.
I apologize for that.

No need to apologize: I understood what you mean. Wink

Kai Magazine wrote:

Please understand that every time someone suggests this should be done by porting Scumm to msx, or using more ram, etc, they are in fact saying: "this could be done better", and every time I hear that (and it has been A LOT of times) frustrates me and disenourages me of doing it at all.

I know, I know... and, again, I understand: I used to enjoy msx
development, you know
;D

TIP: do whatever you want to do!

All this noise (here) can help you to sell your product but it can
destroy you as well... as long as you allow it.

Kai Magazine wrote:

Regarding your suggestion that my aim is to sell more, please consider the amount of time and work to do this project, and even if ALL the active msx users on the planet purchased the game, the "profit" would never be nearly enough to cover it, not by a long shot.

You tell me!
xDDD

Kai Magazine wrote:

If we do this is not to make a profit, but to do something that has never done before, and I'd like that everyone (who wants it) could enjoy it.

I DID try to make profit of it, but I couldn't, xDDDDDDDDD

If you need to reach everyone, make it free.
;P

Just joking! I hate freeware. Soft must be paid. Hannibal

Kai Magazine wrote:

The way to make a profit is to create a 48k or 64k msx1 game,

Tsk tsk... 32k. xDDDDDDDDD

Ok. Serious. Sure? Make and sell a MSX1 is make money? Hmm... Wink I think make mokey is sell hardware. Smile

By the way: A 8k msx1 game can be (and frequently IS) much better than a 9disks msx2 game
;P

Kai Magazine wrote:

put it into a cartridge of 64k which costs 9 or 10 euro, and sell it for 30 euro to all msx1 and msx2 users on the planet.
That is the way to make a profit.

I don't think so.

NO ONE wants msx1 games.
Almost everyone begs for msx2 ones. Wink

Kai Magazine wrote:

Regarding the "very few have just a 64k model", I did my own research in the matter, I asked every single buyer what models they have, and belive me, there are A LOT of people with 2+ without memory upgrade, and some sony msx2 with 64k of ram.

Then I must be mistaken.

I supose we go to different drinking places...
(joking, jokin!)
;D

Kai Magazine wrote:

Anyway, to make a port of Scumm you need 640k of ram and at least 512 k of vram.

ok, ok
As I told you, it's your game and you decide how to do it.

Then you will sell it and they will buy it or not.
(the rest is not important)

I have my money here, waiting for you
Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

20-12-2014, 01:15

Thanks Smile

Just one clarification:

Regarding your statement that noone wants msx1 and you cannot make profit with them:

-Manuel Pazos has manufactured more than 100 cartridges for the AAM guys for tomorrow. I will let you know how many they sell.
-uridium, the cure, batman, and many many others have been and will be top sellers, generating WAY more profit than I ever did with any of my games. Eric from Repo Factory is selling A LOT of msx1 games. so... Are you sure no one wants msx1 games?

Offcourse everyone would like new software for msx2, 2+ and tR, me too!
But if there is little to no developement for msx2 is because it requieres A LOT more of work, and gives no profit. It is a hobby.
It is not the same to program or remake a 48k msx1 game than making a 1400k or 2000k game.
Monkey island will be arround 8000k.

Anyway, as I said at the very beginning of this project, it is unlikely that it ever becomes complete for legal reasons, but I hope it inspires people to engage on new projects and development, really.

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

Daemos's picture

20-12-2014, 17:30

Kai,

Do what you have in mind right now. Because you are the only one that has insight on the project that is being undertaken right now. You can trust me on experience. People will even ask you why you cannot port it to MSX1 and even provide you with small demo's that it is possible but deep insight you know that your approach works and thats the approach you must undertake. Once you have something big going on people will come with advices, very good ones and very bad ones but it again depends on how the advices will fit into your project. This will also apply to help. Some people are helpfull and some are not. Just keep your mind straight and don't ever give up. Then bring your amazing project to the world and you can go even beyond that by releasing the source to the public without any shame because people will have comments about your code but you will always remember: It was YOU who made the port and noone else.

Just remember that you are not doing this for us, you are doing this because coding is great fun! and we get to enjoy the final result with you.

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

ARTRAG's picture

20-12-2014, 21:24

Kai Magazine wrote:

Thanks Smile
[...]
Regarding your statement that noone wants msx1 and you cannot make profit with them:
[...]
-uridium, the cure, batman, and many many others have been and will be top sellers, generating WAY more profit than I ever did with any of my games. Eric from Repo Factory is selling A LOT of msx1 games. so... Are you sure no one wants msx1 games?
[...]
Offcourse everyone would like new software for msx2, 2+ and tR, me too!
But if there is little to no developement for msx2 is because it requieres A LOT more of work, and gives no profit. It is a hobby.
It is not the same to program or remake a 48k msx1 game than making a 1400k or 2000k game.

Kai, trust me if I tell you that uridium does not do any kind of profit.
You get profit when the income covers the costs providing a margin.

The research & development on the scrolling algorithm started in May 2012 (http://www.msx.org/forum/msx-talk/general-discussion/msx-vap...). I've been working on it about 5-6 hours per week, from May 2012 to October 2014, first on the tools and than on the game itself. Add yourself, you get about 3-4 months of FTE work.

The time I've spent to get uridium as you see it now can be monetised in 3-4 months of salary of a senior programmer.
This only for the code. You need to add HW design and assembly, graphic and music editing.

Eric has sold about Uridium 80 carts, the income, once payed the direct cost of the cart has been divided equally between people in the team.

MSX is an hobby, there is no way to make profit from msx (nor to cover its costs).

Anyway back to The Secret of Monkey Island: it is such a huge and hard work that cannot compared to anything else even seen on msx to the date.
Creating from scratch the whole game would be incredible hard. Do you plan any conversion tool for graphic and animations ? I hope you will invest in conversion tools able to make your life simpler in porting the Scumm data. You will need for sure some manual refinement, but at least you could start from a whole graphic set already scaled and converted to msx (I did this e.g. here)

PS
I'm telling just as I would do it, but as it is you that are doing it (and not me) you can ignore me safely
;-)

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 00:07

Daemos, thank you again for your helpful words, I completelly agree with everything tou said and I appreciate the insight you have on the matter, it is clever and well put.
Thanks! Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 00:36

Airtag, I did not meant critisize or put down other people's work, I was trying to make a point regarding the fact that it is usually easier to make a profit with a 64k game and cartridge than with a big project like No Name (which took me a whole year working almost full-time on it, doing all the graphics hand made (and there are A LOT), code, and half of the musics, which now has to be sold into an "expensive" 2000k cartridge which costs more than twice the 64k cartridge.
The "profit" I got from this particular game is only 1 month's salary. So I belive I have a point.
Anyway, 2 years to develop an engine sounds brutal! and perhaps yours is not the best example, and I was not aiming to you or noone in particular, but in the Barcelona MSX reunions 99% of the games that are being sold are 48/64k games for msx1, inside low cost 64k roms, or recopilations of msx1 games.
What I meant to say, is that if someone wants to focus msx development for a profit, doing what I do is NOT a good idea, and it is easily a better idea to do small msx1 games or recopilations than engage in 1 year (full time) projects of 2000k.

Once clarified my previous point, I'd like to add that one of the many advantadges of programing on turbo basic is that I can code at a VERY fast speed, since I can test my code instantly, without having to compile everything, etc. And the end results can be spectacular, so I can advance quikcly.
Today we presented a demo of 1400k for msx2 (for 64k of ram) that took just 6 full days to code (and there is A LOT of code!!) the total development has been of 2 months including all aspects of the development, but right now I want to focus on the code part.
This demo is made with turbo basic and it is showing things that had never been seen on msx2 before, and that looks almost like the original version of mega CD.
I will post a video of such demo as soon as possible (in 1 or 2 days).
I feel very confortable programming with turbo basic, and it has not let me down so far.
Please judge by yourselves as soon as I publish this video.
I repeat: Probablu it can be done better (technically, etc) but noone has ever done anything similar before on msx.
Why? Perhaps because it would take 2 years to code in ASM?
I do not know, buit the fact remains the same: noone has done it before.
Same thig goes for monkey island. If I can create a full working engine with all the possibilities of the original game, I will be quite happy and satisfied (even if Disney/Lucas Arts Licensing company halts our development) because, again, noone else has done it before, and because this engine will be available for anyone to release their own point and click graphic adventures.
That is in fact my aim, not making a profit. I very much doubt the full version of monkey island will ever see the light for legal reasons, but an engine such as this could be the boost our system needs to inspire new developers.
So as you can see, I am not aiming for profit in this project. (I know you were not the one bringing the profit issue)
I am going offtopic. What I meant to say is, perhaps you should code in turbo basic, you could code much much faster and get to a much faster level of productivity.
As a matter of fact I encourage all developers to do so, then perhaps the msx would see more and bigger projects.
Just saying...

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 00:41

Helo Ramones, today at the Barcelona MSX Reunion the A.A.M. sold ALL copys of BATMAN in 10 minutes. Yes, 10 minutes!
a huge amount of 50 people went just at the beginning of the event straight to the AAM stand and purchased ALL the games in 10 minutes. Some people purchased 2, 3 and 5 copys of batman!
Gaunlet has sold out too, and a msx1 games compilation as well.
99% of all the cartridges that have been sold on today's event have been msx1 games.
We presented this amazing msx2 demo and we sold a total of 3 copys.
You can check this facts. I am not lying.

So, are you sure NOONE wants msx1 games??

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 00:46

By the way, batman was sold at 35 euro each.

By Grauw

Enlighted (5816)

Grauw's picture

21-12-2014, 03:09

Very very nicely done.

Btw, by Turbo Basic, do you mean Basic-kun?

By Randam

Paladin (745)

Randam's picture

21-12-2014, 06:08

That Illusion city demo looks sweet!!! Is it available to buy somehow'?

Are you planning on doing more with that Illusion City game? Illusion City is my fav game ever so really hope you will.

By Jorito

Mr. Ambassadors (1720)

Jorito's picture

21-12-2014, 11:08

Looks great, and very close to the original (check the Illusion City video I uploaded last month to see most of the original animations). Don't understand the focus on 64kB, but if it works for you, it works for you :)

Curious what you can do with Monkey Island, it's one of my fav games!

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 11:21

Hello Grauw, Here in Europe Basic Kun is better known as Turbo Basic, but it is the same thing Smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 11:31

Hello Jorito, it was this particular video that gave us the idea of doing the demo.

Regarding the focus on 64kb, I stated my reasons many times before in this very same forum, but I will state them once more:

1-as you can see, it works, and 64k are more than enough with the new storage devices and cartridges, so why more??

2-it is a bigger challange and has more merit, so I feel more realized.

3-20 years ago 99% of ms2 in europe had 128k of ram, but due to lack of new production, new msx users or old users who needed a replacement purchased japanese msx2 and 2+ computers with 64k of ram.
Do you have any idea of how many msx2 users (old and new) have a 64k msx2+ as their top model computer?
I do.
We sold many Kai magazine compilations all over the glove, and I asked everyone for their top model MSX2.
Also, yesterday at the Barcelona Reunion I awhich one is their top model MSX and many said 2+ without upgrades.

So...

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 11:50

Hello Randam, thank you for your interest on purchasing the demo.
As a matter of fact this is a commercial demo.
We have 3 distributable versions:
-Digital version which includes the demo and box cover for 6 euro

-Boxed Floppy disk version to be installed into a mass storage device (sd reader, micro-sd reader, Compact flash reader, HDD...) for 10 euro + shipping

-Boxed Cartridge version for 30 euro + shipping (the cartridge is a very high capacity 64mega rom model (8000k) and it is very expensive, so this is why the cartridge version is so expensive).

Shipping costs are:
4,45 to Spain
8,79 to Europe
12,35 to the rest of the world

Those are the official Spanish post prices for registered air mail letters (with tracking number).

We accept Paypal and bank transfer.
Paypal payments have an extra fee of 5% unless you send the money as "family or friends", which is free

If you want to purchase this demo you can contact us at:

kennethalbero@hotmail.com

kaimagazine@outlook.com

Thanks!

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

21-12-2014, 12:21

Kai Magazine wrote:

So, are you sure NOONE wants msx1 games??

Compilations are welcome as long as they contain old cassette games. Not exactly msx1... Speccy ports, you know. Easy to play thanks to rom format. Btw, compilations (Coded by ME) benefits go (afaik) to make AAM RUs free for everyone -stands included-

Batman uses msx2 colour, the same as your nice demo. However... Batman is a game that can be played. A demo is just a demo. Both msx2, the beautiful thing everyone desires.
What I mean is: sell a GAME and you'll sell many copies, sell a demo and probably you'll sell just a few of them. A demo is just a demo (no offense!! Wink)

Kai, keep on doing whatever you want in the way you think is best. And try to enjoy, as well!
Smile
Sorry for my bad english and maybe for trying to help without being asked to.
You can email me in private (spanish) whenever you fancy to talk deeper and more seriously.
Good luck!
Regards.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 13:11

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 13:10

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 13:11

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 13:16

The thing about chating using nicknames is, that I have no idea who I am talking to.
I had no idea you are the one who made the batman remake.
As a matter of fact I have no idea of who is who in this chat.

Anyway, I applaude your initiative and its results.
Bravo, I admire you, honestly.

Please let me know as soon as you have more Batman copys available, since I did not had the chance to ger mine Smile
Regards.

By Daemos

Paragon (1647)

Daemos's picture

21-12-2014, 13:32

Come to Nijmegen this year and you will meet many of the people in this chat Wink

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 13:34

That is actually a very appealing idea!
When is the reunion in Nijmegen?

By Ramones

Champion (264)

Ramones's picture

21-12-2014, 13:58

I coded AAM Ocean compilation... But I has NOTHING to do with msx2 Batman!
Big smile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 14:16

Sorry, I missread your previous message Tongue

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 14:28

Also, if you are donating all the profits for the AAM to organize this amazing events, this means your work is really altruistic and for the MSX cause.
I admire you even more!

Knowing this I will purchase all your compilations the next Barcelona Reunion. I promise.
Please save one of each for me.

Keep up the good work!

By AuroraMSX

Paragon (1899)

AuroraMSX's picture

21-12-2014, 16:29

Cool :-) I knew it would be possible to get these SCUMM games on MSX!
Ah, how I'd love to play Space Quest, DOTT, Sam & Max hit the Road, Gobliiins and Leisure Suit Larry again!

By syn

Paragon (1600)

syn's picture

21-12-2014, 17:16

great stuff man keep going! I like the gfx and nice animations in that Illusion City demo.

The fact that you used Turbo Basic and not assembly makes it even betterSmile

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 19:10

Thank you for appreciating it! It would have taken me years with any other language, so I would have never done it Tongue

That's just another show of what can be done with basic kun (like all our previous games) so please people, try it yourselves! start developing new projects! today there are amazing technical advances that allows us to do spectacular things with a simple msx2!

By Manuel

Ascended (13295)

Manuel's picture

21-12-2014, 21:02

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

21-12-2014, 21:10

Thank you!

By ro

Guardian (3892)

ro's picture

22-12-2014, 10:09

long thread, post no#100. thank you, have a great x-mass.

By mohai

Hero (626)

mohai's picture

22-12-2014, 23:25

Great job !

It is nice to see you back to the system.

Just a little remark: If the game is to be installed in a mass storage media (HD, SD, CF or whatever...), then I think that at least 128KB RAM are required.
As far as I know, such storage media include DOS 2, and thus 128KB RAM (or more) are needed.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

23-12-2014, 00:01

mohai wrote:

Great job !

It is nice to see you back to the system.

Just a little remark: If the game is to be installed in a mass storage media (HD, SD, CF or whatever...), then I think that at least 128KB RAM are required.
As far as I know, such storage media include DOS 2, and thus 128KB RAM (or more) are needed.
Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Hello, as you stated,if your storage media including DOS 2 requieres 128k of ram, is a mass storage requieriment, not an engine requieriment.
The cartridge version (like the illusion city demo) works perfectly on 64k ram msx2 computers.
Anyway, Megaflashrom sd works with 64k computers as well (check the minimum requieriments).

Regards.

By dracul

Expert (123)

dracul's picture

28-12-2014, 08:53

Keep on doing what you're doing! Like this project and looking forward to see the final product!
Good job!

By Prodatron

Paragon (1778)

Prodatron's picture

07-01-2015, 11:57

This news post caused this thread in the Amstrad CPC forum:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/other-retro/scumm-games/

Did you see this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LofzYGATK9o

Quote:

Specs:
AMD 8088 4.77MHz CPU
512k RAM (256k onboard, 256k on 8bit ISA Card)
360k 5.25" IBM Floppy Drive
31mb Seagate MFM Hard Drive
Hercules Monochrome Graphics.

The MSX can do everything much better :)

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (5795)

ARTRAG's picture

08-01-2015, 08:59

Maybe an old version of scumm could be ported in symbos...

By WORP3

Paladin (756)

WORP3's picture

13-01-2015, 21:33

Nice project, I'm very curious how the music will become inside the MSX version ?

By AuroraMSX

Paragon (1899)

AuroraMSX's picture

19-01-2015, 19:53

WORP3 wrote:

Nice project, I'm very curious how the music will become inside the MSX version ?

Wasn't the original music some horrible OPL3 MIDI? ;-)

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

19-01-2015, 22:49

Hello, as a matter of fact yes, the original music sounds on opl3 and we started creating the intro song and sounds practically the same.
The advantadge is, if we finally develop this project (we are not sure due to licensing problems) we will also use Moonsound, so the musics will sound much better than the original Smile

By DerZocker

Resident (49)

DerZocker's picture

28-01-2015, 14:03

As MSX2+ user I'm glad this project aims to be playable with 64k (though I could still use some more RAM ._.)
Anyway, looking forward for this!

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

28-01-2015, 16:39

About a year ago, a group of amateur developers started making a very faithful new chapter to the original saga with excellent graphics, and a very nice character design, all original and made by them, but Disney halted their progress with a "Konami" style letter (do not touch our things!).
So we have to analyze very well this, and make the propper changes so all our work is not in vain.

Please give us ideas, tell us what we can and can not change, tell us who are not willing to sacrifice, etc.
We will inform ourselves of what conceptual and design changes are strictly necessary to avoid "problems".

For starters, the title:
Instead of Monkey Island we thought of "Donkey Island"
But suggestions are welcome ...

The names and character designs will have to change as well, as certain aspects of the storyline, puzzles, objects ...

Any suggestions are welcome. Nothing is bad or silly (if only you could imagine the way we did the script for Lilo and No Name ... Just say there was much alcohol involved and many post / teenage hormones)

So ... No fear! The more absurd the better!

We need:

-Title
-names of the characters
-main storyline
-puzzles (and other objects)

Let's see if together we make the M.I. ideal for everyone.

If anyone is ashamed put here their ideas, you can send your ideas to:
kennethalbero@hotmail.com

Regards!

By oskar666

Champion (346)

oskar666's picture

28-01-2015, 17:15

Wow, I hardly looked like the English part of the forum , did not know he was so active this topic here ( my english is very bad) . So to continue with the project. DONKEY MSX ISLAND !!!
: Evil:

By retrogod

Supporter (1)

retrogod's picture

28-09-2015, 11:11

The atari ST version used 32K of VRAM with 16 colours.

A tailored version for the MSX2 with multiload from an SD card could be possible if the pre-rendered screens are simpified and compressed. As long as each screen is optimised and RAM usage is kept within limits (and ideally 128K if possible) then fast loading and saving from mass storage would make a version possible. I dont think there would be much room for animation though and it should be kept within 8-16 colours at a low resolution as is feasibly possible. No scaling should be attempted though for a custom port of the game and music shouldn't be a consideration until the programmers are sure it can be fitted in. For this project to be realistic then it needs to be realised that the game has to be cut down and scenes shortened and possibly some puzzle elements need to be omitted from the final version. This project should also focus on a high end MSX system with more available RAM as well as the aforementioned mass storage requirements. No SCUMM engine should be attempted as this is not possible.

The video RAM is 128K and that is more than the Atari ST which is the closest conversion to compare to for performance. The MSX2 also support hardware sprites, scrolling and resolutions higher than the Atari ST whilst the ST had no hardware sprite support or scrolling. Aside from the much more powerful 8MHz 68000, the Atari ST had no hardware acceleration and the only other advantage was RAM support. On the other hand, the MSX turboR is a 16-bit system and could run a port of SCUMM with maximum specs and upgrades as opposed to a specific tailored port for the MSX2. Does it matter how many people have access to a high end MSX? Its a high end game and a proff of concept project. If it does matter then a massively cut-down version is possible.

The Sinclair Spectrum scene are mulling over whether to attempt a version designed and created from the ground up for the 128K system with mass storage SD support with no animation or scaling. Maybe the community should contact them and work cross platofrm as it uses the same CPU and they have the same issues and restrictions. The Atari St version should be the version that is used to convert from and compare to really when re-designing it from scratch.

This is really a project that pushes the boundaries and is a lesson in how best to manipulate and squeeze resources. If it is eventually completed then it should be sold at a premium to cover the cost of such a mammoth project, real collectors will not complain and I hope we can all appreciate what will go into this. If for any legal issues it cannot be distributed on physical media then it will need to be free and written for emulation and quietly released. I would suggest that it be released into the wild as an unofficial Monkey Island port and I would not bother creating an original title loosely based on Monkey Island.

By Latok

msx guru (3483)

Latok's picture

28-09-2015, 15:02

Funny, I forgot about his. Next to this game, Kai apparently is also working on an MSX2 version of The Secret of Monkey Island...

These guys either have lots of time on their hands for development or they are too optimistic and announce a lot but finish nothing...

By ren

Paladin (670)

ren's picture

28-09-2015, 15:53

@latok Kai abandoned the Monkey Island project (worries regarding legal issues (property of Disney)) and instead started working on Kai's Rage, using the engine he initially developed for MI (as he explained himself)..

By anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

anonymous's picture

30-09-2015, 14:05

Latok wrote:

These guys either have lots of time on their hands for development or they are too optimistic and announce a lot but finish nothing...

Exactly as you said. Lots of talking, but very little doing. Now you understand my skepticism in the thread about Kai's Rage.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (4838)

JohnHassink's picture

30-09-2015, 14:28

It seems they are concentrating on Kai's Rage now, so it's not as if they've announced like ten different vaporware projects. Following the progression, it looks like they will deliver.

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

30-09-2015, 17:03

Thank you, ren, for explaining this for me here in this post. We indeed announced long ago we would halt the Monkey Island developement, and we would use that engine to create something completelly original, which is Kai's rage, and it is currently our only project.
Sorry for not keeping you guys updated, we actually did not do any talking for months, but we have been doing a lot.
We have already 6 areas of the city (about half of it!), and a playable demo is almost complete, so we did work a lot on the project.
I hope noone belives such a game can be done in 3 or 4 months, and the fact we did not update any news does not mean we are not working on it, just that we are not so keen on attention.
Since we did not get any funding it will take longer than we would have hoped, but we will most certaily deliver.
This is a huge project. Please be patient.

By Manuel

Ascended (13295)

Manuel's picture

13-12-2016, 22:49

So, what happened with that engine and Kai's Rage?

By Kai Magazine

Paragon (1151)

Kai Magazine's picture

14-12-2016, 10:30

Kai's rage is on hold due the fact that needs a lot of work and I have no money to spend 1 year working on just 1 game.
There is a lot of artwork done already but we need to make much more. It is in the "to do" list until I get my economical situation stabylized.

Regarding the graphic adventure engine itself, I might do a much easier and smaller AVG if I see there is a public for it, but after asking opinions to many people regarding what kind of games would they like to see developed, most people ask for action/arcade games, and mainly side view platformers, so I am working on that at the moment.

My MSX profile