XL2s cancels their MSXdev'06 entries

by wolf_ on 22-09-2006, 14:38
Topic: MRC
Tags: Challenges
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With somewhat over 3 months left, XL2s the winners of MSXDev '05 sadly cancelled their entries Dash and the highly anticipated Lux due lack of time. While these games won't compete in MSXDev'06, XL2s promised to finish the games nonetheless!

At the moment of writing, 7 games are announced or finished already:

  • "TT Virus", by Brain Eaters
  • "?", by Infinite
  • "Malaika", by Karoshi Corporation
  • "Monster Hunter", by Nerlaska Studio
  • "Operation Wold", by TOYBOX Team
  • "BeeZ!", by Darkstone
  • "Los Jardines de Zee Wang Zu", by Jos'b

The MSXdev contest is the perfect place to showcase your programming knowledge, MSX1 graphics talent and PSG skills, while even extensions are allowed (as long as it works on an MSX1 with 16kb RAM)! A game's size can be up to a MegaROM, so there's nothing in the way to create a splendid game, one that could compete with famous Konami releases in the 80's! Last year MSXdev'05 was a huge succes, which treasures will this year bring?

Relevant link: MSXdev contest website

Comments (95)

By mars2000you

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22-09-2006, 14:48

Very sad news indeed, as it comes after TNI withdrawal from the competition with another ambitious project (Cyberware: Chapter IV ~ Katarsis episode II ~).

But the challenge is not over and all the projects are not yet revealed, some of them are still kept secret. MSX fun must continue ! Wink

By ro

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22-09-2006, 14:51

figures, its was too good to be true. doom is on dev'06 and there for on MSX
(neh, just being negative)

hope they keep their promise and finish it anyway!

By Huey

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22-09-2006, 15:53

Crying Guess it's almost impossible to develop a 'big' game in one year time.

I hope they will continue and release it in the MSXdev'07 (if there will be one). And if so; MSXdev-Guys PLEASE do not set the requirements any higher. Just stay with MSX1, PSG and 128kb ROM. More possibilities will only lead to more cancelations.

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 15:55

Tho, 32kb RAM (or more) would be appreciated.. 1 megarom is fine. In our case this 16kb brings a lot more additional work, so having somewhat more RAM only increases the chance of things being finished.

The odd thing with Dash is that I thought it was nearly finished..!

By viejo_archivero

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22-09-2006, 16:02

Perhaps those cancelled entries means that bigger projects are more difficult to finish... this makes me wonder if we were right or wrong by extending the size to 128KB... anyway, time will tell!. Let's wait for the end of the contest and its final results before making conclusions out of this. C'mon, msx-ers out there, there is still time to finish/make your entries! Smile

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 16:13

I see 2 potential explanations
- Bigger specs not only leads to bigger possibilities, but also to bigger competition. Last few years games were small and smallscale (due the specs).. perhaps those same ppl are a bit reluctant to join this contest? It's a bit of a controversal statement perhaps. Tongue
- big games are simply difficult to finish. Note however that TNI's entry was not cancelled due gamesize but due hardware. So, sofar only XL2s ran out of time.

As for us, what makes our content sofar our content is mainly gfx, maps and music. I'm always a bit cautious to just state that big games are unrealistic compared to a small game.. in many cases the only difference is gfx, maps and perhaps more complex music (more channels is often more data).

By Huey

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22-09-2006, 16:14

@Wolf!: I know what you mean. But the 128kb ROM does help a little. No matter the limits you always want to use the resources to the max. And there's the problem.

I'm glad we didn't enter the MSXdev yet. We won't be even close to finishing our 'little' project when the contest closes at the end of this year. Let's hope MSXdev'07 will come and doesn't stretch up the requirement limits.

These days it possible for almost everyone to make a game that can compete with the Konami game standard, or even surpass. But almost nobody has the time to make such a game in a/every year.

By mars2000you

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22-09-2006, 16:23

Well, as viejo_archivero has said, it's too early to take some conclusions. Let's see first what this 2006 edition will give as new MSX games.

This discussion is though interesting. Maybe if too ambitious projects are announced, it can be a source of discouragement for other developers. On the other side, if the rules stay in an reasonable perspective, very talented developers can create a new game in 2 or 3 years and participate to the edition corresponding to the finishing level of their development work.

I guess that to promote in the same way the creation of small games and big games, a solution should be to divide the competition into 2 sections : "normal" roms and megaroms. So everyone should have his chance. Certainly something that the MSXdev' team will discuss Wink

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 16:29

And PLEASE discuss the RAM issue Tongue I dunno whether 32kb msx'es actually are out there.. seems 64kb is more conventional. But as I said: this 16kb thing actually limits things and forces us to create extremely optimized/hacked solutions. Which is all a nice challenge ofcourse, but it does limit things. And I don't ask this for ourself actually, don't ask how, but I think our plans *just* fit 16kb. It's mainly for ppz out there who are less handy with optimizing code and squeezing basketballs into piggybanks (which pretty well describes our game ^_^).

Apart from that, how many ppl truly use an MSX1 with 16kb? A poll would be nice.. I estimate that an MSX1 with 64kb is as cheap as a candybar these days..

By Huey

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22-09-2006, 16:34

I don't think that the MSXdev is about winning. Do we realy compete for a Turbo-R????
I personaly don't care who won. All I see is that finally some good games are made since years. Dividing the contest in small vs big games isn't nesesary. A small puzzle game can easily win from a 'big' game IMHO.

Making MSX software is major fun. And MSXdev is a great platform for displaying your results.

I vote against the > 16kb RAM. MSXdev game should run on all configurations.

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 16:40

mhoa.. dunno. You could argue whether 'getting a price' is required. I think it's healthy, in a creative way, that if you are competent enough to win, that you actually try to win. If you don't see yourself creating the next Konami game, then that's no shame ofcourse, participating is also fun, and all the games from '05 were appreciated. Too bad that both TNI and XL2s could've been these so-called 'competent entries'..

By Huey

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22-09-2006, 16:47

With Operation Wolf finished the competition is already a succesful MSXdev year for me. The other entries can only make it better.

MSXdev and OCM are for me the things that can keep MSX 'alive' for some more years and bring it its, earned, retro status.

I just hope XSL2 and TNI will compete again next year.

By pitpan

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22-09-2006, 19:23

I'm going for a 8 KB ROM! Wink

By viejo_archivero

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22-09-2006, 19:34

pitpan: hehehe Wink

By ARTRAG

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22-09-2006, 20:14

I do not know, as so many games are cancelled, maybe it could worth an extension of the deadline or a specific sub-competition with extended deadline dedicated to the projects in delay.

By dvik

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22-09-2006, 20:35

I'd like to see 64kB RAM but keep the ROM size small, say 16 or 32kB. That sortof limits the size of the game but gives a bit more flexibilty to code.

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 20:39

64kb RAM and 16 or 32kb ROM? wtf Big smile That's like having a skateboard and a 400 square mile area to cross. Tongue

128k ROM + 32kb or 64kb RAM, would be the most ideal config. And this is a maximum config, no-one is required to fully use whatever there is..

By dvik

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22-09-2006, 21:01

128k ROM is nice too, but 64kB RAM gives a lot of freedom, e.g. unpacking stuff less often, create own int handlers. don't bother too much about variable usage.

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 21:10

Exactly, you need RAM for unpacking. But there's no point in having 64kb RAM for 16kb worth o' ROM stuff. I figure 32kb would be more than enough already for most stuff tho. Hence: 128k ROM and 32kb or 64kb RAM .. that should do the trick!

By Manuel

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22-09-2006, 21:25

Huey wrote: I vote against the > 16kb RAM. MSXdev game should run on all configurations.

hah, but there are at leaset 2 MSX machines with only 8kB RAM! So the game won't run on those!

I did some statistics on the amount of RAM of MSX1 machines on the MSX hardware list:
8kB RAM: 2 models
16kB RAM: 32 models
32kB RAM: 35 models
64kB RAM: 89 models
unknown: 3 models
total: 161 models

Of course this is not 100% accurate, I didn't check for double machines (there could be a few, but not many) or other possible discrepancies. But it should give the rough idea.

So, if you demand 16k RAM, you can run it on about 99% of the MSX1 models, with 32kB RAM on 79% of the MSX1 models and with 64k RAM on only 57% of the MSX1 models, according to these figures.

If you also take into account that MSX2 and up have at least 64k RAM, you get the following figures (there are about 95 MSX2 models, 11 MSX2+ models and 2 turboR models):
16kB minimum: 99%
32kB minimum: 87%
64kB minimum: 74%

Now you should still multiply by the amount of machines per model to see how many users can run the game Smile BUt I have no data on that, obviously. But I think it's safe to assume that most MSX users that still use a real machine these days, have a machine with at least 64kB. 16kB or 8kB machines are very rare and so unusable (they often lack other features as well) that I think you will reach over 99% of the real MSX users when choosing a minimum of 32kB RAM (for some Yamaha CX-5M users Tongue) for a game.

By wolf_

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22-09-2006, 21:27

79%? suits me Tongue Viejo/Mars/Pitpan.. ya reading this?? a whopping 79% ^_^

By dvik

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22-09-2006, 21:54

Would be nice though to not be required to support MSX2+ and TR machines without any penalties. I really don't like that they fail to make them timing compatible.

Everything was so nice and peaceful until Panasonic screwed everything up Wink .

By Huey

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23-09-2006, 11:05

If the MSXdev team wants to change the RAM limit for the '07 competition. I only hope they will decide soon. There are lots of people already doing stuff for next year (I think).

By viejo_archivero

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23-09-2006, 12:14

dvik: Everything was so nice and peaceful until Panasonic screwed everything up
ROFL!. 100% agree with you, dvik! LOL!

By Yukio

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23-09-2006, 15:31

But I think it's safe to assume that most MSX users that still use a real machine these days, have a machine with at least 64kB. 16kB or 8kB machines are very rare and so unusable (they often lack other features as well) that I think you will reach over 99% of the real MSX users when choosing a minimum of 32kB RAM (for some Yamaha CX-5M users Tongue) for a game.

The MSX standard is supposed to work with banks of memory.
If a software make a search in each slot and sub-slot, it should use external RAM cartridges. I know it is in the MSX standard! A lot of magazines and books makes references to this type of expansion, even the manufactures had original RAM
cartridges. It is on The Red Book!

There should be more than just two programs that could use the extra memory!

By Sonic_aka_T

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24-09-2006, 01:28

@Yukio: the idea behind MSXdev is *not* using all these extras, but rather making a program that would work on 'any' MSX.

By dvik

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24-09-2006, 01:37

rather making a program that would work on 'any' MSX.
My first MSX (and most MSXes in my collection) was a Yamaha CX5M with 32kB RAM. It was quite boring at the time since many games required 64kB RAM. Most MSXers nowdays have at least one MSX with 64kB ram. I don't see any big need for the entries being compatible with lower spec MSXes so I think its fine to allow 64kB RAM in MSXDEV.

By ARTRAG

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24-09-2006, 09:32

Programming in pure ASM leads large projects to sure dead for programmer exhaustion
TongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongueTongue

Unfortunately megarom mappers and MSX page-swich for extra ram can become quite unhandy for "high level" programming.
E.g., in C, you need to develop by yourself the bank switch routines to call functions outside the active pages.

Even worst and harder to override, there is no simple tool to link the functions and the data in order to take
into account where the function and its data will be at run time (the msx page-mapping for ram is very far
from any other method for banked ROMs supported by my hitech C cross-compiler)

Now I have a 48Krom + 16Kram layout, but sooner or later I'll need to face the above problems.
Until I/someone doesn't find a good solution to those problems, I will not able to exploit the new MSX requirements

By Huey

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24-09-2006, 09:52

@dvik: Guess everyone is also able to run an MSX2 configuration too oO

IMHO:
128 kb ROM -> more possible -> cancelation of entries
32 kb RAM -> even more possibilities -> more cancelations Crying

It really isn't possible to make big/complex/advanced games in 12 months.
The RAM expansion would make things a lot easier (even for me) but in the end you wil go to the max and would really need 64kb RAM (and so on).

The reason why (almost) all of my/our projects in the past never got finished was all the hardware that was available. It was just too much work (gfx/music) or even impossible to realise the stuff we came up with (Z80 can' t do everything at the same time).

How many quality MSX-scene games are there for MSX2? And how long did it take to develop them?
And how many quality MSX-scene games are there for MSX1? Thanks to the MSXdev we have a fair amount of them in only a couple of years.

By dvik

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24-09-2006, 10:57

Yeah, i just need my custom int handler for one of my ideas, so maybe 16kB ram + 5 bytes starting at 38h Wink

I totally agree though that bigger roms and or ram gives fewer entries in the competition.

But if the limit were 16 kB rom and 64 kB ram, then the only limit would be the rom size and developers wouldn't need to worry about ram usage.

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 11:00

t00b: read the rules again: The idea of this year's MSXdev is that it works on all 16kb msx'es and up, but additional support for e.g. soundchips, msx2 etc. gives bonuspoints. So, upwards supporting stuff does count, this year.

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 11:07

huey: It really isn't possible to make big/complex/advanced games in 12 months.

Is UU advanced enough? Was made in less than half a year, including quite some idle'ing. Our current entry will be the full MegaROM with psg or psg+scc music, I'm quite sure we can finish it in time (*crosses fingers ^_^).. if we do, then we've only worked on it for a good half a year orso.

ANMA back then, almost yearly made a game. Ro made quite some games as Picturedisk menu.. and ok, they're small, but still they're still games.

Saying that it isn't possible to make a big/complex/advanced game in 12 months won't do justice to all those who've succeeded, and those who will succeed!

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 11:10

The ROM size defines the size of the game, the RAM size defines how easy you can code things. 16kb means lotsa hackjobs, and it could mean things are quite impossible. 32kb can just mean the difference.

Anyway, no-one is forced to use the full MegaROM ofcoz, if ppl want to make a 16kb ROM ... then they're welcome to do so!

Sofar XL2s are the only ones to cancel their entries due lack of time .. so let's not superimpose this single cancelation on the rest.

By Huey

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24-09-2006, 11:47

There are exeptions indeed. UU and Cure, Nosh a.o. are indead big/complex games.
I guess some people have more time than other. I for one haven't got much time. (16 hours max a week = no time to finish a big game in 12 months).

Time will tell what will happen with the MSXdev's.

@Wolf_:Our entry has been cancelled before entering the MSXdev (I saw the problem comming). So that would make two. But your right, let's just hope everyone else does finish on time.

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 11:56

Pah, 16 hours is enough for 2 persons. (code-person and art-person) Dunno whether it's enough for one do-all person tho.. Tongue

By GhostwriterP

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24-09-2006, 12:18

It is indeed very possible to make a big/complex/advanced game within 12 months. If it is the only thing you are working on. And there lies our main problem, we currently 'working' on too many ambitious projects. They are all fun... but take time... and there is only so much of it. We going to have to make some choices and re-arranged the hole projects pile.
This should work out fine as long as I do not run some silly tests concerning turbor + gfx9000 with results that are, sadly enough, too encouraging to ignore. Now this 'brand new' game project is very likely to be placed on top of that pile LOL!
So it all comes down that we are doing a lot of pushing instead of popping on our 'project stack'.

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 12:41

what's up with Dash? I thought it was nearly done already?

By GhostwriterP

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24-09-2006, 13:10

We recently came up with a few new features we also would like to implement. And there is still no editor and hence no caves.
The current Sjoerd list is (in pop order) sjASM 4, NoFun, Hamaraja Night, GBA blouderdash trial / MSX version.
So it will be somewhere summer 2007... (fingers crossed)

By Huey

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24-09-2006, 13:47

I must be dead slow then Wink

By JJLopez

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24-09-2006, 14:19

Hi Wolf!

64k Ram is a pornographic Ram for MSX1 Game. All classic MSX MegaRom games only use 8k of Ram or 16k of Ram. Wink

OW only 8k Ram.

If the games are in cassette format, well ... 64k is minimum Ram for make a good game, but in a MegaRom you don't need more Ram.

For compression? Well, you can administrate the Ram for make the games ...

Hey! It's my personal opinion. Smile

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 14:40

All roms can benefit from 32kb..64kb RAM. But only when content is stored compressed in ROM (like UU). If old Konami games would've been compressed then they would be much smaller!

RAR'ed versions of MegaROMs (128kb):
F1-spirit -> 82kb
Usas -> 91kb
Nemesis 1 -> 53kb (!)
Nemesis 2 -> 89kb

2MegaROM (256kb):

Shalom -> 161kb
Space Manbow -> 150kb

4MegaROM (512kb):

Metal Gear 2 -> 310kb

To me this all looks quite raw'ish, concerning that quite a chunk can be compressed out. While I dunno exactly how much RAM these games require, I wouldn't be surprised if most of MSX1 games would work with 8kb already.

And now our own UU: from 48kb to 42kb .. but without us bitbusting the whole lot in advance, our game would be 112kb, that's almost a MegaROM already, e.g. more than twice the size of our ROM (little less than 3x, even!)! So, if we would be able to do a MegaROM, and we'd have the game's ass bitbusted again, then we'd prolly come close to a 2MegaROM, or even a little more than that! So, ofcourse there are benefits from compressing, but only if you have enough RAM to unpack to. 16Kb is always a bit of a hackjob, since you run your game in that 16kb as well, you can't just unpack a chunk of 16kb during the game without messing up. With an additional 16kb block (e.g. with 32kb RAM) you can! Therefor I think 32kb should really be enough, tho I'm not against 64kb ofcourse .. Tongue

By wolf_

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24-09-2006, 14:44

The Cure RARs from 48kb to 41kb ... so it's compressed well, I estimate that the raw game would also be around 100..110kb. Is this right, Sj/Gh?

By GhostwriterP

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24-09-2006, 15:10

Difficult to say isn't it. Count every screen of 704 bytes and you easely pass the 100 kb.
Then you still need to add gfx, music and code.
So lets say 150 kb (could be completely wrong here).

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

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26-09-2006, 09:29

Hi Wolf.

Yes, Konami use a poor compression in his games. But, this is a bonus point for Konami, true? If with only 128k and 16k or 8k of Ram, Konami can make Maze of Galious or Salamander ... You, with compression can make very good games. Smile If you need more Ram, you are bad coder. Wink

Usas, and SP Manbow, for this example is incorrect. MSX2 have 64k minimum RAM. But, few MegaRom games use this Ram. Maybe MG2 (boot routine checks Ram) ...

The real problem with games canceled is the big work for make this games. Time. This is a hobby and the time is limited for people with work and studies ... And, you, me, they ... don't are professional teams of videogame...

By wolf_

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26-09-2006, 11:08

If you need more Ram, you are bad coder.

That's two mistakes in one line Tongue

- It has nothing to do with code, but all with music, gfx and maps.. so in short: artwork
- it has nothing to do with being bad, but all with being ambitious.

Is it really relevant that Konami could put MoG and all those other 128k into MegaROMs? We could also have put UU in a MegaROM. What's really relevant here is that we'll try to fit a 2MegaROM into a 1MegaROM. So the comparison won't be with MoG, Nem1,2, Sala, Paro, F1 etc., but with larger games, like Nem3, SpManbow etc.

By Huey

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26-09-2006, 11:48

@Wolf_: I guess you need a lot of RAM for the levels. Then you will have a problem if you also compress music. Shouldn't it help if you rewrite the music replayer to play (extra) compressed music data from ROM? Do you plan to run the game code from RAM or ROM?

Our project will surely pass any MegaROM capacity if we don't cut out some ideas. The available memory is a problem for most of the developers (now and in the past). I think the 16kb RAM limit has it's charm. It's very MSX.

It's all about about making compromises. Ambition is a good thing but it does tend to be on/over the edge of the posibilities (especially with MSX) Wink

By wolf_

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26-09-2006, 12:13

Huey, without revealing too much of the game (it really should stay a surprise ^_^), the maps require quite a chunk o' mem. Basically about everything is compressed in ROM, the only elements that aren't compressed are raw things which are so small/random that compression won't make them smaller. It also saves on RAM since you don't need to reserve space to unpack those things to.
We've not yet looked into the final music size, there's somewhat of a player already, but it's still raw 8-channel music with multiple events per step Tongue .. so uhm.. 'big' ^_^

I think the 16kb RAM limit has it's charm. It's very MSX.

No, it's just very small, it would make sense in the early 80's when ppl wouldn't be doing compression anyway, and back then was the time of small games. In any case, our game *will* fit 16kb RAM, it's just a major timeconsuming hackjob, that's all.

Ambition is a good thing but it does tend to be on/over the edge of the posibilities (especially with MSX)
Ambition is king! It's the force that increases quality. Therefor it's commendable when ppl start on large-scale projects.. it's just too bad some of these projects won't make it in time. The one thing you have to calculate is not: 'is the game too big to finish?' but 'is the game too big to finish for me?'. As long as ppl stay honest about their own abilities, then everything will be ok. (not counting technical issues like with TNI's entry)

By Huey

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26-09-2006, 12:30

Word.

By Edwin

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26-09-2006, 12:46

The limited amount of ram makes the choices between raw in rom, compressed in rom with unpack in ram and compressed in rom with on the fly unpacking a juggling act. It'll probably work out, but it takes quite a bit of time. I'm sure that things would get simpler with more memory available. Having a 128k mapper available would significantly cut development time.

That said, I do think you need more time for megarom entries. A full year would probably be good (note that we only had have 8 months this time). I think we can get it done in time, but the extra months would have been welcome to work on polish and lift it quality to a professional level. But even that amount of time may not be enough for as we don't all have the same amount of time to spend on hobby projects.

I do like the megarom projects though. Even though development time may be longer and there mey be less entries of this size, it gives a whole extra dimension to the type of games that can be created. I personally would like to go back to the smaller size. While making UU was fun, the battle for rom space limited us more than we liked in some places.

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

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26-09-2006, 13:33

Hi!

@Wolf: That's two mistakes in one line

Oh yes! My english is very very poor and bad. It's a "internet english". Smile But ... do you understand me? My native language don't is english. Sorry.

@Wolf :
- It has nothing to do with code, but all with music, gfx and maps.. so in short: artwork
- it has nothing to do with being bad, but all with being ambitious.

Well ... Whats the matter for make GOOD artwork with 16k of Ram? I don't understand this. Ram is Ram. For vars, etc ... artwork don't need Ram, need ROM.

Ambitious? Yes, ambitious is make good game with only 8k of Ram.

Sorry, but VCS 2600 have 128 BYTES of Ram. Coleco Vision 1k of RAM. And this consoles have GOOD games. Please, you can see BattleZone or HERO in VCS, and this is GOOD GAME and ambitious.

You are wrong. MSX1 don't is SNES or Amiga Computer. MSX1 is MSX1. Smile

About "center of universe UU" ... Yes, ambitious is put UU in 32k or 48k. But ambitious don't is use 64k of Ram for UU.

Smile

By wolf_

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26-09-2006, 13:51

Oh yes! My english is very very poor and bad. It's a "internet english". But ... do you understand me? My native language don't is english. Sorry.

It's readable, no worries, I don't think anyone on MRC ever complains about bad English anyway. But a potential problem is when you pick the wrong word rather than picking the right word but then full of typos. In this particular case the problem was 'code' vs 'art'. Code is never extemely big, most content is artwork.

Well ... Whats the matter for make GOOD artwork with 16k of Ram? I don't understand this. Ram is Ram. For vars, etc ... artwork don't need Ram, need ROM.

I explained the compression thing, did I? If you use artwork straight from ROM the you don't need RAM, but if the artwork is compressed in ROM, then you need RAM to unpack it to. By having things compressed in ROM, you can have around twice the amount of artwork in your game.. that's the whole point.

And is that good? Well, consider this: a full sc2 screen is 12kb, that's 3 'parts' of 4kb. If you have more ROM due compression, you can take the option to have a full-screen titlescreen, if you have less ROM (because the artwork is raw in ROM) then you might have to reconsider, for ex. to have only one block of 4kb and thus prolly have a less nice titlescreen.
There are countless considerations like this to do.
Another one is music: PSG takes 3 channels, PSG+SCC takes 8 channels, this means the music is almost 3x as big! It would be a bit of a pity to have the 8-channel music raw in ROM, knowing that especially music has a lot of repetition! Repetition that would usually be packed away.

Ambitious? Yes, ambitious is make good game with only 8k of Ram.

I don't see why this would be the only ambition. With 8kb RAM it's not only about ambition, but also about practical facts. You aren't going to get a huge compressed game running with 8kb RAM.

Sorry, but VCS 2600 have 128 BYTES of Ram. Coleco Vision 1k of RAM. And this consoles have GOOD games. Please, you can see BattleZone or HERO in VCS, and this is GOOD GAME and ambitious.

Just wait, and you'll see that our game will turn faces of former Japanese MSX2 game producers.. I don't think we can compare that with those old consoles. Tongue

You are wrong. MSX1 don't is SNES or Amiga Computer. MSX1 is MSX1

Right, but what kind of MSX1? 8kb? 16kb? 32kb? 64kb? That's all MSX1!

But ambitious don't is use 64k of Ram for UU.
Well, 16kb was enough, was it? The only thing I'm saying is that with at least 32kb things will get easier for programmers and gamedesigners, which could raise the chance of succes.

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

26-09-2006, 14:15

Just wait, and you'll see that our game will turn faces of former Japanese MSX2 game producers.. I don't think we can compare that with those old consoles.

Oooh are you giving hints. Does the game have rotating faces? Tongue

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

26-09-2006, 15:13

Hi!

@Wolf [sc2 full screen problem]:

Well ... I have a bitbuster modification that only uses ONE BYTE of Ram for unpack files to VRAM. If pack file is in Rom, I don't need Ram. Yes, this modification is very very slow to decompress a sc2 screen, but if you use this for title, you don't need speed. One byte, only. Other modification only uses 2k of Ram. And with a special program to split SR5 file, I can decompress a SR5 file (27136 bytes), using only 2k of Ram.

I can make MSX1 and MSX2 game, using only 2k for decompress, with speed. (And if I need ram, i can use "one byte" mode).

Music? Well. You can make music files with semicompression. You need CPU but don't need Ram for interpretate this music file. With 200 bytes of Ram, you can make musics for PSG+FM+SCC.

Well : 8k of Ram - System Vars (0F380h) : 4992 bytes.

4992 - 200 bytes = 4702 bytes.

2k TEMP Ram. You can use this 2k temp ram for decompress and for ... the map in your game.

This is an example. Tongue

@Wolf: [Comparison with VCS and Coleco].

Sorry Wolf, but you can compare with GBA: 256k of slow ram, and 32k of high speed Ram. This is modern console. Smile Do you can compare MSX1 with GBA? Smile

SNES : 1 Mbit of Ram: 128k of Ram.

And you want use 64K of Ram in a MSX1?

Sorry, but is stupid. You can make "special" game using 64k ... tons of screens, play a "video", etc ... Sugar for the game. NO game.

But for make a "normal" good MSX1 game 8k or 16k. For make "demo game", yes, you need Ram. But MSX1 have tons of Roms, with real games. No "demo games".

Although in this modern times, "demo games" are aclamated, and real games are infravalored ... Sad If the game have tons of colored gfx and tons of music is good game. The game is equal. Nobody play the game. If the game have real playability but no have tons of gfx, is bad game. Sad

Yeah, you can see Golvellius. Only 8k of Ram. 12 x 12 screens + caves, etc ...

@Wolf: Well, 16kb was enough, was it? The only thing I'm saying is that with at least 32kb things will get easier for programmers and gamedesigners, which could raise the chance of succes.

Make GOOD game don't is easy. This is the problem. More people, "believe" that can make a game. Good games are for good coders and designers. If you are a real coder, o real designer for MSX system 16k is infinite Ram. Smile

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 15:38

I can make MSX1 and MSX2 game, using only 2k for decompress, with speed. (And if I need ram, i can use "one byte" mode).

Then go ahead, join MSXdev'06 with the best entry Tongue

[qoute]Music? Well. You can make music files with semicompression. You need CPU but don't need Ram for interpretate this music file. With 200 bytes of Ram, you can make musics for PSG+FM+SCC.

We haven't worked much on the player yet, we even don't know how to work with all this, but it'll come. In any case, the game will be heavy on the CPU, so we prefer the RAM-way then..

2k TEMP Ram. You can use this 2k temp ram for decompress and for ... the map in your game.

Our maps require far more than 2kb.. Tongue And that's a technical fact, not a result of sloppy coding.. just wait and see.

Do you can compare MSX1 with GBA?
Nope, never said that. I only said that our entry will turn faces of JP MSX2 game producers.

And you want use 64K of Ram in a MSX1?

I've never said that, I said that 32kb would probably be more than enough, as it allows to have a game running using the first 16kb while you decompress something to the other 16kb block. Besides, most MSX1's simply have this RAM anyway. 64kb would only be more luxury, but I estimate 32kb is enough.

Sorry, but is stupid. You can make "special" game using 64k ... tons of screens, play a "video", etc ... Sugar for the game. NO game.
Unless you've seen it, you can't tell.. you truly can't! Smile

But for make a "normal" good MSX1 game 8k or 16k. For make "demo game", yes, you need Ram. But MSX1 have tons of Roms, with real games. No "demo games".
Again: unless you've seen it, you can't tell.

Although in this modern times, "demo games" are aclamated, and real games are infravalored ... If the game have tons of colored gfx and tons of music is good game. The game is equal. Nobody play the game. If the game have real playability but no have tons of gfx, is bad game.

And yet again: unless you've seen it, you can't tell.

@Wolf: Well, 16kb was enough, was it? The only thing I'm saying is that with at least 32kb things will get easier for programmers and gamedesigners, which could raise the chance of succes.

If you are a real coder, o real designer for MSX system 16k is infinite Ram.

oooh.. I like the pun ^_^

Anyway, our game will work with 16kb RAM .. so, we are out of the discussion anyway. As I said earlier in the thread, I figure that more RAM (32kb) would be welcome if it means that games have a higher chance of being completed in time. And that's all. The secundary discussion is whether a game should be raw in ROM (as with many Konami games) or compressed .. in the latter case more RAM is very helpful.

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

26-09-2006, 15:55

Guys. I think the language barrier is causing more fuzz than intended.
Please don't argue about what is good or bad or can or cannot be done. Nobody will care how a game is programmed as long as it has good gameplay.

Wolf is only saying that he would like to use more RAM. But in the end they will obey the MSXdev rules. If he really wants to change the MSXdev rules he would have have send an e-mail directly to the MSXdev team.

Please lets stick to the news topic: XLS2's cancelation. And forget the RAM discussion. Aparently the MSXdev team don't care either as they haven participated in this discussion.Wink

Instead use your energy on this thread: http://www.msx.org/forumtopicl6337.html
And show me your imagination oO

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 15:57

I'm sure they're observing the discussion from the balcony... Tongue
www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/11/07/Muppet_051107093727103_wideweb__300x213.jpg

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

26-09-2006, 16:12

Nope, never said that. I only said that our entry will turn faces of JP MSX2 game producers.

Oohhh ... Sorry. I'm talking with a new MSX God. What is my punishment, sir?

Eek!

I'm a stupid. I'm waiting new grial, new Wolf production. Best game of the universe ... (unknown?)

I go to burn, my Maze of Galious, Salamander, Golvellius and Zanac cartridge. Sacrileges! Only one church, only one religion ... adoration to wolf ...

Evil

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 16:23

oh puhleeease.. be a bit more mature than that.. :/

With the MSX2 thing I'm referring to the use of palettes. And honestly when I compare a few of the gfx to relevant JP games then they're better.. which actually means that the JP games by far haven't used all their potention yet. But I won't show 'em until the deadline ofcoz. ^_^

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

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26-09-2006, 16:28

Apart from that, the discussion isn't about our entry anyway, it's about XL2s, and secundary discussion is about MSX1 RAM. (which on its own is an interesting disucssion nonetheless)

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

viejo_archivero's picture

26-09-2006, 16:34

W0lfie: 16kb is far enough for you Smile, the more compatibility, the better. Universe: Unknow rocked and everything worked ok, even with 16kb RAM... the thing is to manage in the right way what things must stay in RAM or just decompress, move and vanish. So I guess it is not about the general artwork (for graphics you can decompress, transfer to vram, and then use RAM to other sexier thingies), but the music (that must be sent to the psg every interrupt). Anyway: variables, a 768 byte namtbl buffer, a 256 sprtatr buffer, music (1 tune at a time) and maps (1 map at a time) inside 16kb is not as hard as you are trying to show... Smile At least, not for Malaika, and I promise it has gfx, musix and lotsa maps Smile. Anyway, /me slaps wolf_ around a bit with a large trout, as he knows Karoshi will rule this year Wink

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 16:43

hear hear! Viejo is the new MSX god Tongue

I more than once mentioned that our game will work with 16kb, so the request wouldn't apply to us in the first place. And I mentioned more than once that I'd like to see 32kb allowed if it helps games being finished.. what's so bad about more games being finished? Otherwise you should've stuck to 32/48k games. With MegaROMs you can simply expect a few ppz to try something extreme, more RAM is a side-effect of that.

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

26-09-2006, 16:49

oh puhleeease.. be a bit more mature than that.. :/
That's what you get when you say that your stuff is really gonna be good on forehand. AND people don't understand the intended pun (there was, wasn't there?). Big smile

It almost sounds as if you're making some animated (3d/maze) game. (Yes I'm still fishing.)

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

viejo_archivero's picture

26-09-2006, 16:51

Wolf_: Be sure we will consider your -and other's- comments for the next edition, in -what I expect to be- the great MSXDEV Team discussion for the 2007: system requirements/game size... perhaps we can make a little poll or something...

Ed: just 8 months?... hehehe, so what?. Infinite will start developing its game one month after the contest end even if we give a 2 years deadline... Wink

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 16:54

good? I dunno .. parts are at least comparible with or better than their big MSX2 brothers.. anyway, forget it. I only referred to our game to show the importance of compression..

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

26-09-2006, 16:56

oh puhleeease.. be a bit more mature than that.. :/

Sorry, but is a black humor. If you are best musician, best coder, best designer and you can make best graphics around the world, sorry, but you are a superhero, or a "God". Smile

I don't want to offend, you. Excuseme for this. Smile

When you say "JP games by far haven't used all their potention", do you want say "JP games use few colors"?

Sorry, but GOOD graphic, don't is most colored graphic, I think ...

And this palette feature is for MSX2, like a "extra", true?

Well ... We can terminate this conversation, and use this time for make good games, ok? Wink

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

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26-09-2006, 16:57

Viejo, you'd be scared how little is done yet on our entry.. ^_^ Who do we need to offer whores and wine for some extra time? Tongue

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

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26-09-2006, 17:02

Wolf_: me!, me!... Bodyhammer and mars2000you are pure and uncorruptable, but I'll humbly accept those whores/wine pack! LOL!

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 17:04

JJ:
When you say "JP games by far haven't used all their potention", do you want say "JP games use few colors"?

More or less. Sometimes some rasters could be used, but aren't. Sometimes shadows could be used more realistically, but aren't. Sometimes an extra shade of color could be used, but isn't. etc. Even Konami's MSX2 games could be better on some points. I could list some references, but that would reveal too much. The only thing I can say is that at first glance (and when running an MSX2 config Tongue) our game would look more like an MSX2 game than like an MSX1 game.

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

viejo_archivero's picture

26-09-2006, 17:06

cough, cough... -your comments do not intimidate me- ... cough, cough Smile

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 17:09

I'll reserve a fat 200kg whore to intimidate you Tongue

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

viejo_archivero's picture

26-09-2006, 17:20

wooo! Eek!

By Yukio

Paragon (1541)

Yukio's picture

26-09-2006, 19:24

Hey ...what's the problem with 3D and/or Ray Tracing?
POV-Ray is amazing ...

Screen 10/12 YJK on MSX 2+ and Turbo R are very good!
Indeed the raw images when converted are fancy.
The unconverted (uncompressed) bitmaps could be loaded in screen 5/8 in BASIC
,PASCAL or C ...

Sure that maybe, only maybe some people wanted the GFX9000.
Wasn't this a MSX1 contest???

That's what you get when you say that your stuff is really gonna be good on forehand. AND people don't understand the intended pun (there was, wasn't there?). Big smile

It almost sounds as if you're making some animated (3d/maze) game. (Yes I'm still fishing.)

Do you really want the (now playable) fishing game from Palm OS?Cool

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 19:28

Hey ...what's the problem with 3D and/or Ray Tracing?
The MSX.. Tongue

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5432)

mars2000you's picture

26-09-2006, 19:31

>And forget the RAM discussion. Aparently the MSXdev team don't care either as they haven participated in this discussion.

You're wrong. I'm reading this discussion and I find it very interesting, not for the current contest, but for future 2007 edition. The point is that for the 2006 edition, the rules are well known since about 6 months, so it should not be fair to eventually change them now. But for next edition, I think that this discussion will have some importance to determine the 'new' rules. Each meaning is important and as you know, the MSXdev' team is composed with 3 very different MSX fans .... also between us, there will be a discussion after the final results of the 2006 edition !

>Wolf_: me!, me!... Bodyhammer and mars2000you are pure and uncorruptable, but I'll humbly accept those whores/wine pack!

LOL!

By GhostwriterP

Champion (494)

GhostwriterP's picture

26-09-2006, 19:41

I vote for 64k ram.
It is already said but I am gonna say it again, more ram = easier development. I like to make a game, but not if it takes months to overcome all the problems I run into when using, let's say, 8k ram.
I am impatient, I want to see something happening as soon as possible. And I am not intending to make a study out of every single thing wether it can be done smaller.
Our future msx1 projects will require as much ram as needed. If this means more than 16k it will be more!
No limmits for me anymore... I am not a bad coder, just a lazy oneCool

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 19:50

hear hear! LOL!

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

26-09-2006, 21:13

Sad

MSX spirit are dead ... you want 64k of Ram for make demos ... no real games.

Rules for new MSX Dev 07:MRC Rules for no MSX games. No limits. No games, no MSX...

I only want say that MSX is MSX. And you can make *real good* games with 16k of Ram. Please, you can make effort in playability. Put tons of gfxs, videos, music in your game is symptom of "no idea" of make games. You put sugar and sugar, for make your "no game" candy = you are bad designer.

But this is stupid. Wolf you are new winner of MSX Dev. In this moment, only a "modest" 32k and 8k ram game finished, without tons movies and gfx ...

Please, first make a 128k game with 16k of Ram, better than MoG.

Second ... add sugar with your 64k ...

In this moment, only in this moment you are real God.

If you use sugar for make games, bad thing ...

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 21:30

MSX spirit are dead ... you want 64k of Ram for make demos ... no real games.

That's a limited point of view on games you have, mate..

Rules for new MSX Dev 07:MRC Rules for no MSX games. No limits. No games, no MSX...
MRC? Tongue Ok, MRC is evil, but not so evil ^_^

I only want say that MSX is MSX. And you can make *real good* games with 16k of Ram. Please, you can make effort in playability. Put tons of gfxs, videos, music in your game is symptom of "no idea" of make games. You put sugar and sugar, for make your "no game" candy = you are bad designer.
Why do you keep assuming that a good looking game is a bad game perse? Is SD-Snatcher a bad game? Space Manbow? Usas?

But this is stupid. Wolf you are new winner of MSX Dev. In this moment, only a "modest" 32k and 8k ram game finished, without tons movies and gfx ...
tsk, well, let's first await things. Sofar I think there's enough competition already in form of Viejo's Jurassic Whor.... Malaika ^_^ Tongue I could also mention that Monster-RPG, but I don't know a bit from it apart from the titlescreen, so I can't judge.
But you seem to complain that 32/8k games are competing with MegaROMs? Is that the whole issue then? If so, there's nothing I can do about it.. those've been the rules since early this year already.

Please, first make a 128k game with 16k of Ram, better than MoG.
That's what we are doing already.

Second ... add sugar with your 64k ...
These discussions are only brought up to raise the chance ppl finish their games. (how many times did I mention this already?) You read Ghostwriter's comments, did you? + These discussions might be relevant for next year, but certainly not for this year..

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 21:44

Ghostwriter: would Dash and Lux be finished this year if you could use, say, 32kb RAM?

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1372)

viejo_archivero's picture

26-09-2006, 22:19

Wolf_: there will be more competitors out there, as there are more secret projects out there afaik. Anyway, if this year only comes with 7 MSXdev'06 games, my vote for MSXdev'07 rules will be -without any doubt- 32kb/48kb ROM and 16kb RAM... again, let's wait for the end of the contest to see if the MegaROM thing was a good or bad idea. But I'm really amazed with one thing: am I the only one thinking that if MSXdev rules accept bigger games and bigger MSX specs there will be significantly less entries??.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

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26-09-2006, 22:51

If the megarom has a negative effect on entry-count then I'd like to invite last year's participants, who don't compete this year, here to discuss along.

In any case what's clear to me is that there might be two different groups of developers:

- a group who want to make retro/old/small games, truly not meant to be big games (in a way UU and The Cure are exceptions in last year's competition already, not so much for ROM size, but more in terms of gamesize/concept). In a way (I don't mean it very negatively!) this group could be seen as conservative towards MSX1. Which, on its own, is not bad ofcourse.. it's, say, 'loyal'.

- a group who want to squeeze the last drop from the MSX within the limits of the competition. Specs to beat Konami with. That alone is quite scene'ish. It's usually a scene (also on other systems) who wants to beat official companies and softwarehouses by doing the same product in the same quality.. but then as scene, thus 'amateurs'! From this urge to outrule 'the system' as a 'rebel', a lot of initiatives came. So this urge is good. I actually believe the 3d cards on PC (mid 90's) had quite some PC demosceners involved, as those sceners were clearly doing superfast 3d already, years before cards like 3dfx came.
So, as Konami made megaroms, and even 2megaroms for MSX1, you can bet that the rebels want to outperform that. Compression is in vogue recently (thanks to bitbuster), so it's highly appealing for these rebels to actually fit a double sized ROM in a ROM.. (2m in 1m, 4m in 2m). Those are developments I like, it simply raises the quality. From that pov it's highly sad that TNI and XL2s withdrew their entries.
So, this second group could be called 'progressive'.

You could perhaps summarize this 2nd group as MSX2 developers, who also have an MSX2 history, who make insane turns and twists to fit their games into an MSX1 ROM. The first group could perhaps be summarized as genuine MSX1 users.

It's just a theory, perhaps I'm wrong Tongue

So, towards which type of user was MSXdev '03 '04 and '05 aimed? I think it's clearly the first group, with UU and The Cure being the rebels, because these games would've clearly been MegaROMs if they were produced in the 80's. The interesting question ofcourse is.. 'towards which type of user is dev'06 aimed?' !

If I try to morph JJ's annoyance with >16kb into my theoretical two groups, then he would fit the first one. I think Karoshi is a bit of a mixed bag, and Infinite, TNI, XL2s etc. would fit the second group. Dunno about other participants yet.. forgive me. Big smile

So, this is perhaps where some of the misunderstandings come from... perhaps.. Tongue

By wolf_

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26-09-2006, 23:18

so, additionally.. it could be that '03 '04 '05 participants feel dev'06 is aimed at the 2nd group .. perhaps that's why they're not participating..?

By mars2000you

Enlighted (5432)

mars2000you's picture

26-09-2006, 23:29

Wolf, I like very well your analyse and it seems to be in relation with 2 different MSX levels of popularity.

In countries such as Japan and the Netherlands, because MSX2 (and higher for Japan) was a real commercial success, MSX1 development seems not so attractive although you can produce excellent games also on this platform. I remember the remark on Gigamix when presenting MSXdev'2006 : they were speaking about a MSX1 contest although MSX2 is viewed as 'the real standard' in Japan (and when Japanese speak about MSX2+ and Turbo-R, it's from their pov just enhanced MSX2's !).

In countries such as Brazil and Spain where the MSX standard was introduced lately, MSX1 is more populair than MSX2. And we can understand why the MSXdev' contest is first and mainly a MSX1 contest, as it has been created by a Spanish MSX fan and developer. Also in this 2006 edition, the contest is first a MSX1 contest, although for the first time bonus points can be given for extra features, what includes MSX2 (and higher) features.

If I take a look at the amateur revival from the gamer's side, there's also an evidence : the most populair classic games are ... Konami games. Most of them are MSX1 games, but Konami has also released some giant MSX2 games ! As said by wolf, you can see the MSXdev contest as an opportunity to show that amateur talented developers can now do it better on a technical side than Konami ! But other developers will only to create a game with the same level of intuition and creativity than Konami. And in some cases, you can try to combine best of both worlds !!!

I take the example to Konami (and the developers trying to surpass Konami), just to show that MSX1 and MSX2 are not in contradiction, and new games could be developed for both platforms, probably with some differences for the requested features between MSX1 and MSX2. I think personnally that to combine both approaches, the 2007 edition could be the first with 2 contests in one : the 'classical' MSX1 contest and the 'new' MSX2 contest. But we"ll decide that eventually after the final 2006 results, because 'experience leads to wisdom' oO

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6084)

ARTRAG's picture

26-09-2006, 23:42

The sole solution is to split the next competition.

Two set of specs, two independent and parallel competition, two prizes.

The low spec competition gets 48Krom+16Kram
The high spec competition gets 256Krom+64Kram

but, IMHO, this is matter for a poll to be done in January

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

26-09-2006, 23:43

I'm not sure a double contest would work. What if in the high-end contest there's only one participant, after 6 others failed to finish their game in time..? Boy, that would be a boring contest then .. Tongue

By ARTRAG

Enlighted (6084)

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26-09-2006, 23:45

you get the prize
we get a new supergame
Smile

By wolf_

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26-09-2006, 23:45

is that fun? winning a contest where you are the only participant? Tongue

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

27-09-2006, 00:38

@Mars arguments:

Hi Mars. Your arguments are goods, but I need add one. In all MSX games, MSX1 games are the 70%. Konami make games for MSX1 when the MSX2 is "quasi" standard (Shalom or Parodius).

It's normal that MSX2, 2+ and Turbo R, was the standard for last years of MSX professional development. Evolution.

But in this moment, MSX it's an standard with 4 different computers: MSX, 2, 2+ and Turbo R. All computers are "retro and old".

This remark "retro and old", is referent to Wolf words, for make two competitions, retro and old, and "new". Sorry, MSX2 is OLD for nonMSX user. This is stupid.

You can develop new games or utils for all computers. No problem. With all specs. No limits.

 Ghostwriter: would Dash and Lux be finished this year if you could use, say, 32kb RAM?

Hmm Wolf... This is your "mature" words? Smile Sorry, sounds like child of 6 years in a stupid discussion. Big smile

Wolf, you can make NEW games, and evolutionated games with normal specs. You have new utilities, compressors, etc ... Old developers no.

Why do you keep assuming that a good looking game is a bad game perse? Is SD-Snatcher a bad game? Space Manbow? Usas?

And you? Can you assume that make good looking game is possible with normal specs with a real good design, good code and of course humility?

SD Snatcher, don't is best game. Very good gfx, musics, argument ... but is really poor in code. Slow and bad.

But ... this question it's for me? Are you in all discussion, talk about your games are better good than *this* games, true?

About Usas, I bet that only use 16k of Ram. Tongue But ... this are MSX2 games. Please the discussion is about MSX1 games. Do you remember?


Quote:
Please, first make a 128k game with 16k of Ram, better than MoG.

That's what we are doing already.

Well. That's all.

Some of the presents can say to this boy that down to Earth?

By JJLopez

Rookie (22)

JJLopez's picture

27-09-2006, 00:59

Hi viejo_archivero:


But I'm really amazed with one thing: am I the only one thinking that if MSXdev rules accept bigger games and bigger MSX specs there will be significantly less entries??.

No, I'm with you. But reasons are different. 16/32k is very little specs for some users (see this thread) that need extra features for make ... in his words "games to beat Konami" (lol).

They need more Ram, more sound, more ... (gdljfdffdf).

But now, with only 3 month to finish they request more. They can't realize games. And they protest and they are excused. And request more Ram, more things ...

With this new specification some people no longer will match , since they does not have anything to do against them, with his "modest" games. I'm sure that tons of modest games or Basic games are in the wastebasket. Result: Ruined Dev.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

27-09-2006, 01:10

JJ:Hmm Wolf... This is your "mature" words? Sorry, sounds like child of 6 years in a stupid discussion.

You clearly didn't understand that question at all, just as you don't seem to understand anything at all, no matter how often I explain the same things in hundreds of elastic positions and dialects. The question was just meant to find out whether the chance a game gets finished increases with more memory, because that was the start of this whole discussion! This whole discussion was not about MSX1 vs MSX2, not about dev'03-'05 vs dev '06. It was ONLY about the chance of a game getting finished if more RAM would be present. What's so hard to understand about that??

By pitpan

Prophet (3131)

pitpan's picture

27-09-2006, 01:56

I really liked Wolf's analysis about the "MSXdev tendencies". I think that it is a very lucid disertation about the MSX situation nowadays. Besides the loyal/progresist contraposition (I consider myself a "loyal" or "conservative" MSX user and developer), I think that there are several elements to be considered when deciding a set of rules:

Bigger specs -> Bigger expectations -> More ambitious projects -> More time required -> More cancelations.

Then, what we've got here is a big dilema. And it is up to the MSXdev team decide about it, of course, paying attention to the community's feedback.

As a programmer, I would say that I want big specs. Well, just bigger MSX1 specs Wink (first generation forever). As a user, I would say that I just want more new games. I prefer a simple but released game rather than a bunch of canceled promising projects.

The original purpose of MSXdev was to revive the MSX1 developement. MSX1 scene was almost dead because most developers were focused on MSX2 systems.

What is positive about it is that it has helped the whole MSX community. Let me explain this: a MSX2 developer that programs for MSX1 has to be more creative, program better and optimize both code and data size. This technical improvements will help any further development for any platform.

I would like to know your views on this topic. But maybe it would be better to start a new forum thread and discuss this subject properly.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (9728)

wolf_'s picture

27-09-2006, 02:11

ppl, to keep things clear 'n tidy, continue the discussion here please!

Reactions on XL2s's withdrawn entries are ofcourse still welcome here, but if you think they'd belong or add to the discussion, then we'd like you to post them in that forumtopic.

Tnx, W.

By sjoerd

Hero (593)

sjoerd's picture

27-09-2006, 13:27

wolf_: Ghostwriter: would Dash and Lux be finished this year if you could use, say, 32kb RAM?

No, In short the problem with Lux is that we are not that sure what game we want to make.

The problem with Dash! is that it's more or less sjoerd's project Tongue

By Huey

Prophet (2642)

Huey's picture

27-09-2006, 15:27

"Good" to hear its only a creative problem. And that it hasn't anything to do with the RAM/ROM fuzz ;P

By GhostwriterP

Champion (494)

GhostwriterP's picture

27-09-2006, 19:09

Yes, and this way I have more time on projects where I do now what to do. Little more complex but definitly fun. The question now is, is 256 kb ram gonna be enough Tongue

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