(MS)X-Prize challenge - who's up for it? (marlon-B?)

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Van Hydlide

Master (171)

afbeelding van Hydlide

08-10-2010, 11:56


Please use Cuckoo Clock, then you won´t need a battery. :-) And it even tells you correct time! How about that? :-D

I was thinking of an auto-winding clock... you'd need to shake your computer once in a while to keep it going though Wink

Van Hydlide

Master (171)

afbeelding van Hydlide

08-10-2010, 12:02

However I've not seen one yet with an external connection that's wide or fast enough to support 50pins cartridge expansions.

Yeah.. that damn cartridge slot is the biggest issue.. Could there be a way to hook it up through USB instead of putting it on the board itself? It would make choosing an already existing platform easier.

Regarding the CPU. Personally I believe (and I think ivke2006 is with me on this) that a physical Z80 equivalent would make things a lot easier than implementing that in the FPGA as well. Debugging a CPU core will take a lot of time and make things quite complicated. I'm also doubting on the speed that can be achieved with an FPGA CPU kernel..

Any ideas?


add SCC-i/audio/music to the wish-list and go for 2+

yeah, I was thinking that myself. Use the 2+ as a base, including the music specs..

Van syn

Prophet (2113)

afbeelding van syn

14-10-2010, 00:17

I really regret that I don't know much about hardware or programming, since I would love to help on such a project. Sometimes when I'm bored I would just daydream about what specs an MSX or videogame console made by me would have Big smile All I can do is give my opinion/view on it, feedback, suggestions etc.

For me, something like "the ultimate msx" is good enough, no need for tons of new hardware/graphics. Instead having a msx which contains a few or maybe all of the relevant/important msx upgrades or planned ideas (stuff that is in WIP status for example or stuff that has been discussed but never seen daylight), + a few small nice to have things. Something like a 7mhz msx2+ with a v9990 superimposed on v9958 like the vsu, 4mb ram, marlons new blitter, all the music upgrades is already great, and add some stuff like hdmi/usb Big smile

IMHO we first need to have clarity on the wish list instead of going into the technical discussion.

The high level idea is that it should:
- Operate at least as a MSX2 (running 99,9% of the MSX1+MSX2 software)

Imho this is what the first prototype should be. If this is working anything else should not be too hard to implement. And it could be pretty easy to build, I think all but the msx audio/moonsound/v9990 already exist in FPGA form, check the msx revival forum there are a few threads about it. Also how did the OneChipMSX solve the cartridge port problem? It has 2

For me this base-part would look something like a MSX2+ with slight improvement

- MSX 2+ compatible. z80 based, v9958
- speed options for cpu, like default 3,58 and max. Maybe just 7-10mhz? (so that current msx computers can just get the turbo upgrade to be compatible with this system)
- 4mb ram
- Y8950 (msx audio), YM2413 (msx music), SCC+. Maybe add a stereo mixer (software mixer, opened with CALL MIXER or whatever) for the sound so you could set panning for each soundchip (including PSG) so you could play those old moonblaster demos in stereo, and maybe for new software as well.
- Cartridge port x2
- + basic connectors like joystick video etc.

Basically something like this:
http://www.retroleum.co.uk/v6z80p/

Once this is working we can look into the aditional stuff like new vpu, cpu, usb, hdmi etc etc.

When designing additional hardware, do you guys think its needed to keep it "forward compatible" for the older existing msx systems? Like Marlons idea with all the expansions in slotexpander. What if, all the new features new board will have, any msx 2+ can upgrade to with some cartridge? Would that be a good idea or a waste of time/resources?

Also the question is will all of the neww ideas be possible to be implemented through cardridge upgrades.


- Have more CPU speed


keep your Z80 slow but add a fast 2nd CPU, like a 32 bit ARM processor next to the FPGA, or some FPGA-embedded CPU

I think retrotechie's idea is good, kinda like the SNES which was very slow but had a few gfx processors (risc?) which helped speed things up.

How much speed do we really need? 7mhz z80 + something 50mhz ish co-processor?


- Have more VDP speed
- Have extended graphics (high resolution + more colours)

Maybe try contact Magicbox, he was working on a FPGA-based vdp.
http://www.msx.org/forumtopic9046.html
http://www.msx.org/forumtopic8964.html

Though this project afaik was far from finished, in these threads at least you can find what most msx users think what would be the best ideal graphics update.

Also tecnobyte was working on a msx graphics upgrade based on stacking a few v9990 and 9958's, (http://www.msx.org/VSU-news.newspost4862.html) but since this project is more about FPGA maybe that is a bit offtopic, though imho if the idea is making some sort of next generation msx maybe keeping it compatible may be a good idea? or not? what do you guys think?

What about V9990? obsolete?


- Have 'modern' storage/communication possibilities (like USB, HDMI, network, SD card)

USB is a must really imho for new hardware to be compatible, for joypad/keyboard mainly
HDMI would be nice, but at least 1 old type of connection shouuld be available imho (Scart/svhs etc)

Van sd_snatcher

Prophet (3642)

afbeelding van sd_snatcher

14-10-2010, 01:36


Would this be a high level wish list that could be agreed upon?

Please respond!

I would modify that a little:

- Operate at least as a MSX2+ (running 99,9% of the MSX1~MSX2+ software)
- Have more CPU speed (at least faster than the R800)
- Have more VDP speed (that includes a turbo-blitter)
- Have more VRAM (the spec allows 1MB easily)
- Have direct access from the CPU to the VRAM
- Have extended graphics (V9990 compatibility, palettes on scr8, SMS video modes, allows SMS sprites on MSX2/2+ modes)
- Have 'modern' storage/communication possibilities (like USB, HDMI, network, SDHC card)
- Have a cartridge-slot /way to connect (MSX)Cartridges
- Have the possibility to implement other (retro/Z80) computer platforms (to extend the added value and therefore expand the sales)
- Sound: MSX-Audio with OPL3+ADPCM+YM2413translator, SCC++ (combining both SCC+ and PSG in a single 8-channel superset), built-in mixer to adjust the relative sound between the chips
- Have as much as possible an Open-source design + open-source deliverables
- Team/Scene effort!

Van Tanni

Hero (556)

afbeelding van Tanni

14-10-2010, 17:58

Hydlide:

Hello Hydlide, hello ivke2006,

The challenge will be to create a fully functional open source platform (with use of closed source components where applicable) for hobbyists according to the following requirements: ... The above will be the basic package, and could actually be used for every Z80 based system, not just MSX.
this is a wonderful and very interesting idea, especially the package thingy and the inclusion of other systems as well.

Without having read all the thread very thoroughly, here some remarks:

Maybe specs need to change. But the intention is not to stick to the old school architecture,
but to really improve on it from the core.

Funding means commitment!
I think we should first decide about money and funding if the idea is well worked out and if we really know what we want, otherwise the project will fail here.

We (ivke2006 and myself) are already willing to donate funds to get things up to speed, but it will be up to the community to get it really working, and active. We know the above is ambitious, it's not something we expect to be done in a few weeks, of course. We have some ideas, but we are not experts enough to actually make them into a product

We also think that making a universal base would make the device suitable to be used for more than just MSX, many more hobbyist communities might profit from the above. But since we are MSX fans, we thought we'd propose here first. Baby steps

Hydlide:

Well, not so much a 1chipMSX follow up as a look into the future. To be honest, the 1chipMSX was purely for keeping the MSX alive, and too limiting to really improve (FPGA way too small for instance). What our idea was is to make a leap in performance, while keeping backwards compatibility for the corresponding platforms.
Totally seconded!

since I'd pick a much larger FPGA anyway: the 1chipMSX design just fits in its FPGA, and that undoes some of the reconfigurable advantage(when there's no room left for extensions). IMHO that's one of the few flaws in the 1chipMSX design: they should have gone with a bigger FPGA, if they didn't for cost reasons it was stupid since FPGA prices were (and are) dropping fast. Each year you get bigger & bigger FPGA's for same money.
exactly our thought!

Seconded, too!

As for funding: I think the main problem is not so much organization, but the small market. But a commitment-upfront scheme would be a good way to avoid having designer(s) make the full initial investment (& uncertain about recouping their money).

We're still not clear on how to approach this. As Marlon-B said, it should be a team effort. But once you start talking about raising funds through crowdsourcing, a level of commitment is needed. Our idea would be to have enough funding to make a first prototype that is "production ready" - could be sold straight away. Then have a few more made and have developers have their go at it, to make a software/system base for the final products.
An idea is to not have any stock of devices but have them build to order. That's why we need "packages". People should be able to buy the platform only, or purchase with for instance an MSX package, or a Spectrum package, etc etc.
But again, we have no idea how much money would be involved for the first iteration. 1000 euros? 5000? Using kickstarter.com means we need to set the numbers right. There is no risk for those that support the project. If the treshold isn't reached within the given time period, transactions will be nullified. If the treshold is met, then the donations will be transferred. After reaching the treshold and there is still time left, people can still back the project. That's why you will see some projects with a $10000 goal reaching over $60000 for instance.
You should took one step after the other. A prototype is never ''production ready''. Software and hardware should be developed hand in hand. In our case, the task would be rather complex. Some aspects of that were already discussed: A real MSX revival?

EVPON,

I agree that's not easy and I agree that we would be capable. And yes, i've already dreamed about a new MSX long time ago (BTW, if you attended Bussum 2003 up to the very end, you'll know.), but the ''distribute work'' thingy is not that easy at all. If someone comes up with an idea like you, he will be explained why it doesn't work, why it's totally impossible to realise that ideas, ... so that one don't need to put effort to reach that goal. This way, many really awesome ideas never get realised.

See this thread: emulator ID I/O port

If it's hard -- almost impossible -- to convince people to have certain new features in an emulator, features which would not be so difficult to implement, but which also should be present in a new MSX, how will we ever be able to realize a new MSX by our own?

Adding new -- not yet MSX -- features to an (experimental) release of an emulator would be the first step to check how a new MSX could be. I don't care about what is there called ''creating virtual reality''; for me, an emulator is or could be also a means to investigate about the possible features of a new MSX.
What do you mean by ''first iteration''? For a project like yours, you need lots of more money, I'm sure.

It's not really the risk of loosing money, but the risk of proofing again the infeasability of such kinds of project.

We really believe in community driven development, and actually see this as the only way to really get something out there that everyone likes. The 1chipMSX was a nice idea, but only some people profited from it, while the manufacturer got loads of cash for a device that was obsolete before it got introduced.
Believing is not enough! But you're probably right that's the only way ...

1 More: forget hunting down 1chipMSX case mold, or designing new box: just keep an eye out for suitable boxes used for commercial products (routers, set-top boxes, media players etc). When you spot one: make deal with manufacturer, and cut a few extra holes for the MSX use. That cuts down another chunk of the 'big initial investment needed'.
Yep, exactly what we thought. Or maybe even sell without box and have the user decide on his/her own. We should only take care that the form factor of the platform is more or less standard maybe. Or, like you said, chose a ready made box and adapt form factor to this.

To my mind, the casing is the most important part of a computer, especially if you want to gain new users. It must look neat and attractive. If you're going just with a ''box'' then your product will just for the super mega hyper retro user, i.e. forget about it! It's not good to save money on the wrong place!

RetroTechie:

It's Xilinx-based, so it would require adaptation/porting of the 1chipMSX design. Possible (maybe not even that hard), but there's few people in MSX scene who have the skills, or time. I myself may get to that point, but not there yet...
Btw. that board is more than powerful enough. Don't know what FPGA exactly, but way bigger than the Altera Cyclone used in the 1chip (it runs Amiga for example). If I'm not mistaken the board even includes an ARM processor that serves for bootup / various I/O tasks.

If even adaptation/porting is considered a problem for said reasons, forget about it!

The design should be independed form a given platform from the beginning, so it shouldn't matter if it is a Xilinx or an Altera etc. board.

The cartridge slot. Yeah.. but does one really need it?
Have some mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, it's on the 1chip. It's useful, and things are plugged in regularly. On the other hand: if you look at what's plugged in & what for, you wouldn't lose much if you drop it. Then again, interfacing with 5V isn't that hard, and slot connector isn't big/costly. Another option would be updated extension slot: perhaps 3.3V based / smaller contacts / higher speed / 16 bits / larger address space, whatever.

Yes, a cartridge slot is a must!

You also plan to incorporate other systems as ZX81, ZX spectrum, so you already proposed a modular design (your package idea). It would be a design error to not extend it to cartridges.

Of course, a proprietary cartridge slot would cause some problems. The solution would be a new system specific cartrige standard with adapters for MSX, ZX etc.

marlon-B:

This project is a very ambitious one. It would take a long term commitment from my side.

I dont know if I'm ready yet to commit to such a project. Mainly because I dont know you people and dont know how dedicated you are. And I dont wish to do it alone.
Yes!

Marlon-B, I once had an idea for a similar project. It was in 1993! It was for MSX to survive. As there were no real interest in it, I reworked it and extended it to other homecomputer systems in 1997 to 1999. I prepared a presentation about it for Bussum 2003 and actually did that presentation. That presentation was very sketchy, I admit, but going into details at that point wouldn't have been good, I think. But instead of the audience asking me for details after the presentation, they asked me about my opinion on Kay Nishi or so.

See the reactions in the threads I provided a link to.

It is not only a question of commitment and dedication. At a certain point, there must be decisions and money. There must be someone who is responsible -- even in a legal sense -- for that project. And it should not only be a retrocomputing project. There should be a reason why someone should by such a system besides retrocomputing and gaming.

But you still have long way to go. You are now still in the wishlist fase.
In a certain sense, it's clear what we wish concerning MSX (or ZX or whatever):
We want a system which will work like an MSX etc.

There should be a phase where we collect ideas, even such that would go way beyond.

Just keep it realistic
Yes, of course, but things unrealistic today might be realistic tomorrow! And we can't realize such a project today ...

Also the New MSX should feel like the OLD MSX. People (like me) are in this community
because of this MSX feel.

For the [bf]feel[/bf], you need the approbriate casing, besides others!

And remember we are using a very powerfull FPGA ! So we dont have to stick to any design of existing processors. We can derive from one(Z80) and expand, design our own...
That's what I meant with emulation to investigate new possibilities.

Sky is the limit!
Only the sun is the limit!

Also cartridge slot is a must! Expansion is the very core of MSX design. Leaving this out would
definitely kill the FEEL.

Seconded!

ivke2006:

The high level idea is that it should:
- Operate at least as a MSX2 (running 99,9% of the MSX1+MSX2 software)
- Have more CPU speed
- Have more VDP speed
- Have extended graphics (high resolution + more colours)
- Have 'modern' storage/communication possibilities (like USB, HDMI, network, SD card)
- Have a cartridge-slot /way to connect (MSX)Cartridges
- Have the possibility to implement other (retro/Z80) computer platforms (to extend the added value and therefore expand the sales)
- Have as much as possible an Open-source design + open-source deliverables
- Team/Scene effort!

Would this be a high level wish list that could be agreed upon?
More or less, yes! It should have three USB ports, I think!

Hydlide:

Yeah.. that damn cartridge slot is the biggest issue..
Could there be a way to hook it up through USB instead of putting it on the board itself?
It would make choosing an already existing platform easier.

We should define our own slot standard to avoid legal problems.

Van Leo

Paragon (1236)

afbeelding van Leo

16-11-2010, 07:17

i have tons of Z280 for those interested .
...
is it ok to re-use already existing module : LPE Z380 board ?
Generally speaking the idea of L.padial to have a separate CPU board is interesting for upgrades, i think.

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