How do you feel about what's actualy called the 'MSX REVIVAL'

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Door J-War

Champion (412)

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10-08-2004, 00:30

On this thread www.msx.org/forumtopic3577p15.html
we had a realy interesting discussion about the actual " Msx Revival ", i'd like to continue it on a brand new (and shrinkwrapped) thread to see what you think about it and how you feel about the so called " Msx Revival ".

As a start, here is a reminder of what i said :

First, here are some of my thoughs about roms and emulation which are realy important to keep a commercialy dead system ALIVE :

boah most of us already bought these games back in the 80's no need to buy them twice... Plus companies made enough profits with them back then and most of them still do through rereleases and reharshals !
Everything which can spoil this " let's earn even more money using that vintage nostalgy wave " just bring plain erections to me...

All these re-releases and reharshals just keep those softs under commercial exploitation forever ON PURPOSE and since gaming industry selling departements know there are enough compulsive gamers out there to keep buying everything from a game franchise or another... what else could we expect from them ?

But still... most msx games are now plain old and forgotten but they will still bring a decent amount of pure pleasure so let's enjoy them because hopefuly we're human and intelligent enough to not follow stupid/inacurate laws and rules which have been created only to serve companies to earn more money !

After all if humanity reached his actual level it's because from time to time men we're able to bypass and go above the general lameness / stupidity / rigidity of the law makers and/or those which can more or less abuse people using laws.

We're the one that made the MSX revival, not the companies ! The companies could enventualy faint to want a revival if they can earn money from it, period. But actualy we're the one which put the most greatest efforts in it.

Most of not all of you will post reactions to state how much you don't agree with that but still... MSX is unfortunately well dead and we do all we can to keep it alive.

As long as rom spreading and emulation will carry on, we'll raise chances to catch more people who used to be msx freaks and make this community bigger and even more alive !
Trust me most of them will be happy to be able to play their old games and softs PLUS all the one they weren't able to buy back then (Plus to discover all those softs which were brung later by the amateur scene) without having now to spend ludicrous amount of money on ebay 'n stuffs. We weren't all able to keep our msx hardware and software forever and in the 80's we weren't all able to buy all the game we wanted to play at.
Also, Rom spreading can even lead some people to discover what the MSX was exactly and to eventualy enjoy it in order to make our community bigger and bigger !

Coders, composers, graphic designers etc... are just a minority in the actual " scene " most of people just want to play games, share memories and love of their favorite computer and the above minority bring them the possibility to do so... this is just great because it's free !

*ACTUALY* (as for today) I DO support MSX roms spreading and honnestly the fact that people can now just enjoy any soft of this awesome obsolete computer just makes me happy.
As i said once on another thread, all the rest is more or less pure hypocrisy and will remain hypocrisy whatever you could answer to this thread.

Although MRC have the absolute RIGHT to tolerate MSX roms links or not, they are still the one that decide what are their own policies and we MUST respect it.
I still think it's not a good thing to get down on it's knees as soon as a japanese company try to intimidate websites/communities around the world but still, MRC members are the only one to decide about their site policies and i respect that.
I had myself a good amount of troubles with various game companies and even the IDSA because of one of my site, but guess what ? We're still here and more powerful than ever and this is our choice no matter if you like it or not .
(See at the end of this thread an even more clear statement about that)

Although i am one of these msx real hardware/software collector who spent huge amount of money into collecting i still think the real revival IS the MSX emulation !
Hopefuly OpenMSX and BlueMSX (amongst other older one) are here and those bring the most important thing : Anyone can quickly and easily enjoy a (almost) perfect MSX experience and thanks to their respective features on some points it's even better than the real thing !
As i said above, we don't have all enough time/storing/money to have access to real hardwares and softwares... The msx is here for the multitude, for people not JUST for a minority

But hey ! What do you need to fully enjoy an emulator ? You need roms...
As the most reprensentative MSX user of today is an emulator user, well...

Second, general statements about the actual game industry and how incompatible it is with a eventual commercial revival :

We talk about big companies here which have to make money to stay alive, especialy the japanese one cause the golden years are gone...

Now a lot Jp dpts have been lately decentralized to USA and there's even US companies develloping good selling product for a Japanese console nowadays...
The time where only Jap companies (or almost only) were releasing for Jap consoles/computers is over.

Even nintendo isn't the hegemony it used to be... They even had hard times with some of their products but thanks to GB and GBA they can still earn a lot of money.

Ppl working in Japanese video games companies have changed and as time passes by, there are less and less msx freaks working in those.

Money is the absolute keyword now in the video game industry, game are made so they can touch the max possible amount of ppl, game music MUST BE commercialy accurate so publishers can have larger sales on soundtracks than they had by the past.
Plus they release on each consoles the same oldies and reharshals over and over again so it can slightly boost incomes...
There's a nostalgy wave actualy and they jumped on it, surely not for the love of an old software or hardware...
Don't expect them to throw money in devello new games for msx, if eventualy they do it, it will have to be as much "low cost" as possible.

The fact is clear, there are NO KNOWN project... Except gurulogic but it's not released as for today and it has not been made by any team member of the mentioned companies. So what ? Compile could only be just an exception there... But still, did they take the risk to bet a decent amount of money in devello ?

Egg is still not MSX dedicated, it's just dedicated to old jap softs this way sales are just more important and can even grow larger as they'll cover other old systems.

In japan even if the MSX was popular it never was the NES, of course a fair amount of japanese user might want a revival and might do some effort for it... But even, japs are not known to love sharing with the rest of the world their beloved hardwares and softwares, even now in 2004 most of them are protectionists as hell !!

Even on the old systems which were popular enough in the rest of the world we hardly had half of the available games released in english. I don't even speak about the other systems which weren't able to reach acceptable sales out of japan !
We almost had to wait the PSX era to enjoy non jap versions of most of the available games. But wasn't it because of the huges sales ?

The real combat i'd like people to focus on (it's an utopia tho ) is making roms for such old systems legal. But for many titles (and of course the most intersting one) it's just impossible because they're still under commercial exploitation or they remain protected in case one day a commercial exploitation could eventualy be planned to earn some more precious money...

If you want to support that msx revival the way those japanese people want it to be and which you totaly agreed with, then start buying that MSX Player ! How many ppl had personaly bought it here ? (Only snout answered 'me' until now)

Oh well, we didn't speak with all the people you talked with, we weren't in those japanese meetings full of very important and influent persons but untill now there isn't anything concrete enough but mostly blurry chimairas which aren't enough for us to start believing.

I think we would be all realy happy to see a " Decent " and " Fair " msx revival but the fact is just that we have actualy higher expectations than that...

I Can understand there are some ppl that need to believe so hard in an eventual msx revival, they can be potentialy satisfied with what has been achieved till now but it's realy not my case !

Hopefuly i'll change my mind only when i'll see something concrete and realy interesting coming.

About games, There are too much great msx games which were released so at least we could be realy satisfied only with new COMMERCIAL products which could at least match the quality and immersive potential of the old titles. Even now it would cost a fair amount of money to devello such a game so that means there should be enough potential buyers to avoid companies loosing money on it ! O_o

A bit later i answered some replies with quotes :

Who's talking about being satisfied now?! Ofcourse not, but a little trust and patience is a good thing!!

Trust and patience... They seem to be rare traits, I think it's sad...

Oh i sincerely agree with you, no kidding, but i just wanted to point out how it's hard to believe in it for the moment because of the various reasons i explained above

The real definition of commercial is that you GO for profit without hesitationto make it and may use it for everything they like andare therfore a company. A foundation such as MRC and Sunrise are e.g. allowed to act like a company and if they make profit they had to put that money obligated into the msx-system.
That are the fundemental differences between a commercial company and foundations, clubs. Revival is not the japanese version only

No no no, you misunderstood me on that houston
To make it clear i am only talking about the game companies which released commercial products back then for the reasons i gave above on my 2 previous threads.
I realy *love* and *respect* Sunrise and all other club, communities, websites and stuffs ! I would not be able to find anything to complain about those, realy...

For me WE are the revival, the revival is Bombaman, Sunrise, Tuna-Wolf, FlyBy, Guyver800, MRC, #msxdev etc... i can't name everyone, k ?
That means peoples, clubs, companies, irc channels... More or less everything which's amateurish no matter how important it is and if one can earn money from it.

You contribute even yourself. So denying if it exists would be foulish.
To make visible what MSX Association does is for people who doesnot communicate with them hardly to understand. On my turn I am busy to make that a little bit more visible. See e..g the ese msx2- board that you can admire on fairs since they allowed it !

Yeah of course ! You misunderstood me here also... I DID SAY you, me and various other ppl ARE the revival, the real one, the one i place all my hope and devotion within...

Sure they want to make money with it. Part of which is being invested in the one chip MSX project. But the fact they are making money with it doesn't mean the don't love MSX. Or do you think Sunrise don't love MSX either? The fact that they dropped MSX in the past (and, indeed, might drop MSX again in the future) was regrettable, yet had understandable (economical) reasons. Nishi deeply apologized for dropping MSX at the time, but also explained why in his Tilburg 2001 lecture. Are you equally angry at others who dropped MSX in the past and returned to the MSX community later? Even I didn't do much with MSX between 1996 and 1999....

No ! No and No ! Snout ya'll get spanked
Same reply as for sunrise just above ! I am not angry at all at any company that droped out the msx in the 80's, it was just a logical evolution period.
All my septicism and critisism goes and only goes for what i mentioned above in my 2 previous threads

The only discussion we keep having is that some people dislike the no-warez-policy on MRC. By sticking to these policies other websites have been kept out of the line of fire of Japanese companies. I don't know if it's going to stay that way forever, though.

Again : No !
As i stated it clearly before, i am NOT against MRC policies you have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to define them the way you want and WE HAVE ONLY TO RESPECT THEM perdiod
Some of us may not agree with them on some points but hey, we just have to respect them even if some of us would do it differently. Dammit ! This is not our site but yours

When one settles legal matters it's quite normal to agree to keep things confidential. Which is what we did. Really, you won't get any more from me than just the fact there has been communication on these matters with Japanese parties. In fact we keep all communication between the MRC and third parties (except for the funny hatemail) confidential by default. I personally think that's just a matter of common decency.

The way it was told just sounded a bit elitist to me, you'd better not saying anything than stating some kind of " Hey, i know and you don't ".

Companies are not the big evil of the world! Neither is making money a bad thing. Companies that try to make money on the system at this point do that because their feelings toward the system are warm enough to 'just do it and see where it leads'. That should be encouraged, not complained about

Absolutely true, this is simply how it works.
But what i complained about was how they tried and still try to make more money on old titles endlessly. I would have expected those companies to have enough love for those vintage systems to leave these 20 years old titles out of any new commercial exploitation attempts !
How many times we brung this "love" concept before ?
Some ppl keep saying there are ppl working in the game industry that LOVE the MSX so much they will attempt to revive it ! But damn, if they do it for love why they don't start to think how they could get in touch with other influent people so they can try to find a way to *FREE* the most critical MSX softs, patents etc... so we would be movement free enough to build something realy interesting.

The involved peoples will get tired of it as monthes will pass by due to the lack of freedom and the "Jap only" way they'll do things... If only there was some real and STRONG attempt to join forces. We're here waiting for them without any real possibilities to get involved in it, that SO DISAPOINTING
The fact is still so clear, as any msx revival will prevent companies from making money from the nostalgy wave, MSX freaks will have to find complex and time consuming workarounds which will result in unsatisfiying attemps.
In simple words : that msx revival didn't started the right way and should *NOT* be a succes but a waste of time.
But as Guyver800 said, who knows ? Sometimes faith is realy more important than statistics, actualy to start believing i need something different than what has been done until now and how it has been done

As usual, noone is directly targeted by this thread, those are general thoughs.
Kisses.
J.

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Van anonymous

incognito ergo sum (109)

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10-08-2004, 01:36

Dude, I'm not reading all that text ^^;

Nobody is forcing you to buy the rereleased games, and if you already own the game there's no reason to.

Bottom-line: If you bought a game in the 80's, you can download the ROM now. It's as simple as that.

Van J-War

Champion (412)

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10-08-2004, 01:44

you lazzy bum Tongue

Van [D-Tail]

Ascended (8232)

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10-08-2004, 08:42

J-War, that monologue was even worth four cents Big smile

Van Latok

msx guru (3655)

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10-08-2004, 10:01

The Japanese MSXers who are very close to the 'revival' always have said themselves this is an MSX Users Revival. But also in Japan, there are MSX users who are very sceptical about this all.

Van MrRudi

Hero (515)

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10-08-2004, 14:20

Everybody with a shred of common sense in them will be sceptical about it. I still think it's more wishful thinking or childhood dreams that keep haunting you than reality. Nevertheless I try to refrain from critical remarks outside of MRC and point people to MSX Magazine and Egg to show just how crazy the jap....to show how alive the system is!

I rather keep my warm memories than have them ruined by the cold of dissapointment. Selfish I know.

Maybe we should put all the MRC talent together and create a new game, show them Japanese how it's done! Wink

Van Latok

msx guru (3655)

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10-08-2004, 14:40

Guru Logic anyone Tongue

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9765)

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10-08-2004, 14:47

/me still waiting on the ultimate generic scrolling/pageperpage RPG engine that can be used by non-coders Smile

Van J-War

Champion (412)

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10-08-2004, 15:41

Wouldn't it be possible to have some meeting/brainstorming with both japanese and european msx revival makers ? (Same amount of peoples for both sides)

This would be an accurate way to exchange ideas and suggestions.

Somehow a central and INTERNATIONAL msx revival web page should be created so people from all over the world can interact with peoples behind the MSX revival. That would also allow ideas sharing, suggestions, requests and more... It would even make it possible to gather more influent people who might want to be involved in it at the moment.

Van enribar

Paladin (994)

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10-08-2004, 16:29

Hey! I'm happy that my naive post has generated all these posts!!!

But one thing is not clear to me... MRC sais that suggesting links to roms is not legal.
So, is it more legal to post news like these? :

"Hackurl released an MP3 of the first BGM of Sony's MSX shoot'em-up Gall Force"
(... and then, what does Sony say? Is Sony not interested in this conversion?...)

"Mopi Ranger Remake 0.01"
(... and then, what does Konami say? Is Sony not interested in this conversion?...)

etc.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9765)

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10-08-2004, 16:52

There're tons of fan-sites about all kinda recent games on the net .. you'll find there tons of hobbyist drawing wallpapers etc. I think those remakes and rearranges fall under 'fan-stuff' .. I don't really think the official companies mind that. Dunno for sure tho Smile

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