MSX Association and Europe

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Door pitpan

Prophet (3153)

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10-02-2003, 13:00

As long as MSX Association has completly forgotten Europe (no panaeuropean version of MSX-magazine, no english version of MSX-Player, crappy english web-page never updated, no respect to european hardware development and neither attention nor support to brand new MSX games), my question is the following:
Should we accept the MSX Association rules? I know that they are the legally entittled owners of all patents, trademarks and legal issues. But ethically they are far away of being legitimated.
So, I will continue using software produced more than 10 years ago without paying ANYTHING, and I will continue coding for the MSX platform without indicating that "all my work and happiness belongs to MSX Association". Accept it: they have left us. Of course, I would like to have a new MSX computer, but it will be in japanesse, it will cost lots of yens and there will not exist any documentation for it. I will buy it anyway, but I will continue my "MSX-life" without considering what Nishi (a.k.a. "the traitor") plans to do in Japan and NOT in Europe.
I know this post is a bit "hard", but it resumes my feelings about all this. We have been forgotten and ignorated. And this will continue in the future for sure. The only solution is becoming japanesse (no way, it's time to eat sushi).

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Van Maggoo

Paragon (1216)

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10-02-2003, 13:27

wow wow wooooow... Take it easy pal ! First of all Nishi is far from being a traitor, he's the one who created the MSX and also the one who gave the impulse for its rebirth. Secondly Nishi DID bother coming to the netherlands to present his project to us die hard MSX Fans. Now concidering how busy that guy is, isn't that a sign of good will ? You know many people who would do that ?

Secondly, it's not Nishi or ASCII who gave up on MSX. ASCII did NOT produce the MSX but companies like Matsushita, SONY, Sanyo, Philips... When it stopped being a lucrative business, these are the companies who gave up on MSX (And we can hardly blame them for that because that's what a company is for, making money).

With time I do beleive that the new MSX could make it to Europe, but at this stage it's just merely a concept, not even a working technology. If they plan to make it a worldwide commercial product (and according to Nishi it is), I guess the companies producing it will put the marketing efforts it takes to sell it. At this stage there is no other companies than ASCII involved and certainly nothing that can be sold that would generate any profits. I guess with the MSX Magazine and the festival ASCII is testing out the response of the potential audience on a small scale (= less costly), and this is the process ANY new product is going through.

So I guess we just have to be a little bit more patient. We've been waiting for more than 10 years know, what difference can it make...

Van pitpan

Prophet (3153)

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10-02-2003, 13:31

Please fit to the facts: all the MSX revival project is ONLY focused on japanesse market. They do not even post the magazine to the rest of the world! And no version of MSX-Player! It is better to buy the Win version of fMSX from Marat Fayzullin.
Would they change their plans? I guess NOT.

Van Sander

Founder (1871)

afbeelding van Sander

10-02-2003, 13:36

Pitpan, please read our earlier posts about this before you make any judgement. (try our search-engine)

Japan has never left us. How can someone leave you, if it had never any true relationship with you?

Our European companies left us, not the Japanese ones because they where never here in the first place.

Luckely for the real diehard msx-ers, they continued their support in Japan as long as possible and now because of all the retro fuzz and all, some dare devils in Japan picked up the glove and are trying to make some software and hardware again.

As lot's of people stated before: copyrights and trademarks have nothing to do with how you feel about a particular company.

If you make something that has any commercial value, you want to protect that, so you'll be sure you own the rights and can make some money with your hard work.
Respect others who want the same thing too. It's one of the foundations in western society.

Van Grauw

Ascended (10683)

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10-02-2003, 14:04

Ok, take a look at the new mobile phone devices produced by Japanese companies, or the digital cameras etc.. They are released far earlier in Japan than in Europe. Why? Because that is the only viable course of action, you cannot simply start out on the largest scale and hope it will be a success. If you do and it doesn't work out as you liked you can count your losses. Imagine that if ASCII would go through the effort of translating MSX Magazine to English and release it on a broad scale in countries like the Netherlands, Brazil, Spain, etc. It is a much much larger release than in Japan only, it would cost a huge lot of money, while whether it will ever be any success is to be highly doubted. Europe and Brazil are much less prone to the 'gadget-factor' MSX Magazine has, Japan is a much easier market as far as that is concerned.

So they'd loose a whole lot of money, and do you think that would do any good to the progress and the chances of this new MSX? No, definately not. Would that make you happier? About the MSX Association rules, they are not restrictive in any way as far as it comes to software development. In the contrary, they finally give you an official source for the MSX logo again. As far as copying games goes, there will always be piracy. And I have yet to see the commercial firm which does *not* take a stance against it.

About Nishi being a 'traitor', do you honestly feel that way? Personally I wouldn't get worked up about it so much, MSX simply didn't become the success they hoped for and in no way that was anyone's fault in particular. It is indeed true what sander said. The european companies left us long before the Japanese did, have you ever seen a european MSX2+ or MSX turboR? Still in Japan they kept producing these, however at some point the people overthere didn't want it anymore either so there was no base for commercial production anymore. Again this was indeed largely the companies' decision and not Nishi's, although he certainly at some point had to face reality and say that he didn't believe in it anymore either. He might have tried to revive it earlier, but he didn't. He apologized for that on the Tilburg fair, however he is going to do his best now.

What more can you expect? If you must accuse anyone (damn I hate the human notion of always having to point out a culprit), blame the companies, especially the European ones. Yet we need those companies if we ever want it to get released again here.

Let's just put it this way. If the 'new MSX' becomes a success in Japan, it will almost certainly come this way. If it doesn't, we're out of luck anyway.

ps. One more thing. You want to know why no English version of MSX-Player was released? It's Microsoft's fault! They are asking licensing fees from ASCII for using their BIOS in MSX-Player. ASCII does have the means to pay such a fee for a Japanese license, where the chances of success are as I said larger, however they aren't able to acquire European and Brazilian licenses. They are too expensive and the odds are not very good - if it doesn't work out they'll have spent a huge lot of money for nothing.

I quote from the official MSX Magazine site: "ATTENTION:These games and MSXPLAYer are only the Japanese versions,and this book can be shipped only within Japan. It is because export to a foreign country cannot be performed by the contract." They would like to, however they can't. Same goes for EGG.


Van Grauw

Ascended (10683)

afbeelding van Grauw

10-02-2003, 14:38

The european companies left us long before the Japanese did, have you ever seen a european MSX2+ or MSX turboR?
Aside from common sense, this is one of the proofs that Japan has a higher chance of succes than Europe has. Also, when releasing the MSX-Player in Europe, ASCII fears that they are going to spend a lot of money on it while it'll only get copied, maybe bought by some 'freaks' but definately not by the general public which only sees it as a nice retro thing and maybe copies it from a friend to try it out. Japanese attitude towards this copying and paying for things is way different for sure.


Van Sander

Founder (1871)

afbeelding van Sander

10-02-2003, 15:52

Hmm, I don't think the Japanese attitute differs much, remember those "No Copy" logo's in Japanese magazine's and on MSX software? Or what about a program called "Formula"?

I think that the percentages are about the same, but because the Japanese market was larger, there where still enough people who bought the software to make it profitable.

About the reprint of the Magazine: At lot of people are longing for those old days. The school kids of the past who copied their games, are the people with a salary today.

Therefor I don't think you should underestimate the amount of people who would buy an English magazine today, but I agree with you that the amount involved probably will be lesser than the Japan sales figures.

Van Bart

Paragon (1422)

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10-02-2003, 18:03

Please fit to the facts: ... SNIP .... Would they change their plans? I guess NOT.

Please base yourself on facts too then. You simply do not know, and probably will never know considering your attitude towards the MSX association, anything about the plans of the MSX Association at all. They only thing you know for sure is that you may not use the MSX logo without a copyright notice. And that's a normal procedure for every trademark in the world.

Can you be factual? So we can discuss facts instead of feelings?

Van DarQ

Paragon (1038)

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10-02-2003, 18:11

pitpan, i dont think the new MSX will be in japanese. I remember a base language that could be used to translate to about 184 natural (human) languages. Isnt that being build in as well??? (<-- any1 knows for sure?? then please answer)

Van pitpan

Prophet (3153)

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10-02-2003, 19:16

Nothing like a hard-enough post to discover the number of users here!!!!
First of all, I should say that calling Dr. Nishi "a traitor" was a kind of joke or what-so-ever, but the main idea is the same: we are not in Japan, we cannot decide, we cannot benefit the project with our own ideas.
I agree with the problem about Micro$oft MSX-BASIC copyright, but what is really annoying is the feeling that we have been left apart. MSX Magazine has been a really huge success, but at least I expected that the english page were updated more often.
And it is nothing "personal". What can we do? Any ideas? Would not it be better just to join european/brazilian efforts and select a new standard for us? We have really high-qualified hardware developers and it can be done if we accept only one standard, our own standard, without counting with japanesse people.
All the problems that you mentioned (copyright issues, little and divided MSX market in different countries) will continue for ANYTHING done by the MSX Association. They really want to earn money and that reason is strong enough to get us out of all this. We are not here for the money, just for the fun. We can do different things and I think that better and bigger things because we are not constrained by that "LET'S-MAKE-MONEY" philosophy. It is just an idea, I do not want to argue with anyone, I am just writting down what I think about the MSX Association.
We cannot blame them, but we are left out of (their) MSX Revival Project.

Van sunrise

Paragon (1091)

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10-02-2003, 19:40

Well you are surprisingly bad informed mr pitpan.
First the MSX Player. The MSX player is in the possession of at least three people.
in Holland. So, not available for Europe.
To the distribution the following. MRC as well as Sunrise have asked MSX Associations to distribute the player into Europe. I have negotiated about it and will continue this.
There is no answer still but an absolute NO is also not given.
Second : Nishi apologized already for the fact that europe was left alone.
On page 89 of the MSX-Magazine are mentioned MRC, SUNRISE AND THE MAKERS OF UZIX as your best partner.

Than the so called non interest for european hardware as well as software
Nishi showed at tilburg his interest in the Z380 OF LEONARDO PADIAL and I spoke with him about the possible implementation of the opl4 into the all in one chip.
This interest was repeated on sunday by Yokoi, who showed also his interest in our plans of making an Ethernetcard with the ez80.our cartridge box.
As regards the software : FAT16 developped for our ide is originally written by mrs Okei and adapted by Jon de Schrijder. This all working TOGETHER .

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