Wiki editing discussion

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Van NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5595)

afbeelding van NYYRIKKI

16-05-2020, 12:16

Ok, now it is not incorrect, but I must say I share the vision of mars2000you

I can see you have found the bliss of having hyperlinks to advanced information and that is fine. How ever I don't share you vision of removing simplified descriptions.... I think kind of best example is when you "fixed" MSX RAM descriptions.... After that I've used my own offline copy, because although you are technically right... You have solved the memory overlaps, categorized it well etc. The problem is, that it just does not deliver the needed information anymore to end user. I have no reason to try to think what was inside of a mind of some Microsoft employee when he wrote that stuff. I just want to hit CTRL+F and write the address that I'm looking for.

This is pretty much the same thing... Now you send the BASIC coder to read all about match pack routines, while a very simple answer would be probably just fine... What I mean is that there does not need to be always the best and most accurate information... you can always link to that... Sometimes people just want to read a simple description about what this is all about without clicking all the links and reading every aspect of the thing & half of the MSX history and design philosophy.

The thing is that I would like to make the wiki more approachable, not just the map of universe, meaning of live and everything.

Van gdx

Prophet (3768)

afbeelding van gdx

16-05-2020, 13:16

You say it's incorrect but you don't say what, and then you say I don't share you vision of removing simplified descriptions whereas I on the contrary I simplified the majority and put in order a lot of pages. What is your goal? You don't realize but the details are important for beginners. It is often because of details not mastered that a program does not work.

Van NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5595)

afbeelding van NYYRIKKI

16-05-2020, 15:12

It is not incorrect. It is just simplified to point where people must click the links to get idea of the functionality. Don't get me wrong... You have improved a lot of pages, I just don't share the vision that people must read the content in all cases in 3D although it makes the information more deep and more easy to maintain... I mean... Why not just adding links to more deep information and only removing incorrect/false statements, if you see such?

Van mars2000you

Enlighted (5699)

afbeelding van mars2000you

16-05-2020, 17:00

I've updated the page and I think it corresponds more to an easy using of the Wiki by everyone. It's based on Nyyrikki contribution, completed by GDX additional infos.

No need indeed to remove what's useful (and correct) for a good understanding. Better to complete it with additional infos and even links for deeper infos.

Van gdx

Prophet (3768)

afbeelding van gdx

16-05-2020, 18:13

Mars2000 make a good job but he reacts too quickly. It often happens that I do not have time to put everything I should put. The link to the description of the format of pointed variables is an example. I knew it was in the Wiki but I didn't have time to find it immediately. I removed your explanation because it becomes redundant.

Same for FN.
https://www.msx.org/wiki/FN
I left an example of DEF FN because I didn't have time to put a new example, but he immediately added the other example of DEF FN, thinking I don't know what. He easily gets in a bad mood. And that is why I complained earlier.

Van NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5595)

afbeelding van NYYRIKKI

16-05-2020, 19:01

gdx: I don't really think you should complain about what Mars2000you does... I see no reason why you should go around deleting stuff from wiki so that you can work on your updates, it makes no sense. If your contribution is not ready, work on it offline and push all the changes with copy/paste once your are done. Worst thing that can happen is that you accidentally overwrite some newly added information (not even very likely), but comparing it to alternative that the information is completely missing for days, it sounds much less of a problem. We can not know what you are thinking, so all that we can do is to react to your actions.

Van gdx

Prophet (3768)

afbeelding van gdx

17-05-2020, 09:46

NYYRIKKI wrote:

I don't really think you should complain about what Mars2000you does...

Repeat it again, he make (largely) a good job. I do not complain about what does but about these reactions. Several times I modified things and Mars2000 erased them immediately. He even goes so far as to write ban messages on the wiki instead of explaining himself with a wiki comment, here or by email when I persist because i'm sure i'm right. Only long explanations by email make him change his mind. Sometimes it's me who's in the wrong, but it's always me who should contact him to discuss about it, never him. We have to follow his ban messages he puts on the Wiki, that's all. You probably didn't know all this.

NYYRIKKI wrote:

I see no reason why you should go around deleting stuff from wiki so that you can work on your updates, it makes no sense. If your contribution is not ready, work on it offline and push all the changes with copy/paste once your are done. Worst thing that can happen is that you accidentally overwrite some newly added information (not even very likely), but comparing it to alternative that the information is completely missing for days, it sounds much less of a problem. We can not know what you are thinking, so all that we can do is to react to your actions.

There are at least 5 obvious reasons why I should go around deleting some stuff from wiki:
- Now I'm trying to unify the syntax of the BASIC instructions to make it more readable. So some explanations need to be changed at least. I can't do this offline. It already requires a lot of work as I do actually.
- I meet in passing errors, gaps or overly convoluted explanations. (eg. SCREEN, FN, etc)
- The Wiki is constantly evolving. I have already made offline pages which have been modified in the meantime. Which does work to redo.
- Reclassifying pages also sometimes requires removing excessively redundant things.
- I don't always work on the same machine so I modify what I can at the moment before forgetting.

NYYRIKKI wrote:

Worst thing that can happen is that you accidentally overwrite some newly added information (not even very likely), but comparing it to alternative that the information is completely missing for days, it sounds much less of a problem. We can not know what you are thinking, so all that we can do is to react to your actions.

I add what I could not do as soon as possible, the next day in general, but Mars2000 often reacts within the 5 minutes.

Anyway, your criticisms are unjustified. Especially since I avoid deleting as much as possible. I begin to think that in fact you just cannot bear that your texts be deleted. Sorry but I think the important thing is not to put personal signed texts. Either your text should be deleted leaving the link, or put a more complete explanation. Your text was only an explanation of a particular case. It was insufficient for people who do not know the instruction. Now Mars2000 opted to let the link and also put a more complete explanation. Although I think that the link only was sufficient that does not bother me.

Of course, I happen to make mistakes but why make a fuss about it? It happens to everyone.

Van sdsnatcher73

Paragon (1150)

afbeelding van sdsnatcher73

18-05-2020, 13:49

This Robopal RBMX-014 seems to be missing from wiki. There are at least some nice shots of one on Yahoo Auctions. :D

Van tfh

Prophet (2430)

afbeelding van tfh

18-05-2020, 16:15

Let's try again:

Regarding Undumped MSX Software list: New Adam & Eve is now available. Can it be updated, or are there any specific requirements before this is done (Checking, validating?)
Also, I did notice that in this wiki page there are some links to msxarchive to newly dumped titles (mainly Korean). I guess this is not allowed to due msx.org regulations?

Van ren

Paragon (1526)

afbeelding van ren

20-05-2020, 17:55

@tfh: idk Smile

This might as well be ignored, but let's try once more. I addressed this a a while ago, but now I'm gonna give a complete solution.

The table here /wiki/Category:MSX-DOS_Internal_Commands (and possibly elsewhere) seems to deliberately use <br>'s to enforce formatting (preventing columns from growing too wide?) That's bad for a number of reasons, among which:

  • br's have semantic meaning (a line break);
  • CSS should be used for styling/formatting;
  • where the br's are put might not work for everyone (e.g. users with an other than default font set / configuration).

(Of course br's can be used sometimes to quickly add some white space / newline(s), and sometimes they're simply justified, but this definitely feels hacky/abusive.)

It's easy to use CSS to get the result you want without the need to resort to this br hack. I'm not sure what formatting is intended exactly but you could (should) remove the br's and use something like:

{| class="wikitable" border="1" style="max-width: 50em;"
|-
!  Command
!  MSX-DOS
!  style="width: 15%" | Updates
!  Short version
!  style="width: 47%" | Remarks
|-

That controls the width of the Updates & Remarks columns, and leaves the rest to 'auto'. Of course you can add widths to the other columns as well if you like to control them. The max-width makes sure the table doesn't grow bigger than a certain size based on the font-size (em units) (though I'm not sure max-width is needed in this case).

NB: the table rule table-layout: fixed might come in handy when you want to make sure 2 tables have the exact same column widths (by default table-layout is auto).

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