Outrun style road demo MSX2

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Van wolf_

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29-12-2019, 21:39

Metalion wrote:
wolf_ wrote:

V 9 9 9 0 ! Hannibal

Some obstacles :
1. I never ever coded for the V9990

It should be an easier chip to code for, though.

Quote:

2. My road rendering engine is made for a bitmap mode, and P1/P2 are pattern modes

Then use bitmap modes. Tongue You might not have sprites, but these modes should be fast enough for soft-sprites, I think.

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4. Indeed, it would be a little bit outside the MSX standard, and I would feel like cheating Smile

Well, I wouldn't accuse you of cheating! In fact, all the V9990-owners would celebrate true V9990-content at last. Forget the word 'MSX standard'. That standard was very small and it was in fact designed to be expanded. Now that we have an expansion like a V9990, developers don't want to use it because they want to stick to a small standard, while at the same time that standard just isn't up to the task they want it to do? oO It's like me complaining about the fact that a PSG doesn't sound like a piano, while at the same time refusing to use a Moonsound. Don't get me wrong: I never expected to see an Outrun-road move like that on an MSX, with proper hills 'n such. But here ye olde Fuzzy Logic expression is accurate: "if it looks good on an MSX, it's a trick". Road? No problem. But the rest will be a problem, and you're bumping into it already. Hannibal

At least take a look: https://www.teambomba.net/gfx9klib.html

Van ToriHino

Hero (625)

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29-12-2019, 21:45

Indeed, MSX is just the standard (which includes btw also 2+ and the speed of the TurboR) that makes it possible to expand upon, so making use of that is not cheating at all. Indeed it looks currently already great but if you really feel stuck, see what other possibilities can be used.

Van wimpie3

Champion (334)

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29-12-2019, 21:48

I understand the 'cheating' though. Your game would be special because something similar has never been made before on a standard msx2. If you make use of the v9990, the magic is gone.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9842)

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29-12-2019, 21:56

Except that there appear to be bumps in the MSX2-road (pun!), and this could mean that there will be no game at all, or perhaps a skimmed-down game that is no fun to play. A developer must always recognize where the possibilities will grind to a halt and choose a different path.

Van tfh

Prophet (2606)

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29-12-2019, 22:05

wimpie3 wrote:

I understand the 'cheating' though. Your game would be special because something similar has never been made before on a standard msx2. If you make use of the v9990, the magic is gone.

Not only that. MSX-Music is really part of the MSX standard. The V9990 is a community thing. A really nice community thing, but not part of the MSX standard. In theory you can put a RPi on a PCB and hook it up to a cartridge slot. Are we still talking MSX here? I've seen a GameDuino hooked up to the C64 userport. Is that still C64? Especially the fact you need seperate outputs (Both with V9990 on the MSX as with the GameDuino on C64). You're just controlling external hardware. For me it's loosing the essence of the original machine, being it C64 or MSX.
You end up programming a game for V9990, not for MSX.

Van wolf_

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29-12-2019, 22:20

There was an MRC-poll about that, many moons ago: https://www.msx.org/poll/msx-game-rom-new-custom-chips

Who decides what belongs to the MSX standard and what doesn't? If it's Nishi, then what happens if he doesn't care to widen this standard? Then you'd be stuck with what there is forever, no matter what chips the scene comes up with.
Also, if you want to stick to pure-MSX (say, all up to the tR but nothing after that), then you'll also need to accept that certain things just can't be done properly. So, by kind of 'ending' the definition of the standard, you're also ending the type of productions you can make.
Again, that Outrun-road looks amazing, but so did all kinds of demo effects in the 90's. That doesn't mean that you can as well make a proper game around it. These effects are too much of a trick rather than something that blends in well with a game engine.

Van tfh

Prophet (2606)

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29-12-2019, 22:27

wolf_ wrote:

There was an MRC-poll about that, many moons ago: https://www.msx.org/poll/msx-game-rom-new-custom-chips

Who decides what belongs to the MSX standard and what doesn't? If it's Nishi, then what happens if he doesn't care to widen this standard? Then you'd be stuck with what there is forever, no matter what chips the scene comes up with.
Also, if you want to stick to pure-MSX (say, all up to the tR but nothing after that), then you'll also need to accept that certain things just can't be done properly. So, by kind of 'ending' the definition of the standard, you're also ending the type of productions you can make.
Again, that Outrun-road looks amazing, but so did all kinds of demo effects in the 90's. That doesn't mean that you can as well make a proper game around it. These effects are too much of a trick rather than something that blends in well with a game engine.

Well, I am only giving my personal opinion. And for me, V9990 is as much part of the MSX Standard as would be a SVGA chip in an MSX slot. And of couse you don't have to limit yourself to the MSX Standard. But then the end result isn't MSX but something else controlled by an MSX. But... just according to my humble opinion of course :)

Other question would be: Let's say the CPU would be getting to slow... Would be adding a 16bit CPU or an ARM CPU still be MSX? You could end up with your MSX being a PSU and HMI.

Van wolf_

Ambassador_ (9842)

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29-12-2019, 22:33

Perhaps that extra CPU wouldn't be necessary if you give expansions proper chips. Think of a Moonsound'ish chip that doesn't just have a sound-chip, but also a song player with its own memory to store multiple songs. Then all the Z80 needs to do is a call to that chip, and then let there be music.

But more in general: that's a gray area yeah. Let me rephrase your question in a different way. Let's say we don't expand like a madman, and we keep all things native. Would you then accept that certain tools, games and demos simply can't be made on that bare MSX?

Van tfh

Prophet (2606)

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29-12-2019, 22:45

wolf_ wrote:

But more in general: that's a gray area yeah. Let me rephrase your question in a different way. Let's say we don't expand like a madman, and we keep all things native. Would you then accept that certain tools, games and demos simply can't be made on that bare MSX?

Of course... There will always be limitations to certain hardware. A bit extreme of course, but I can guarantee you that we will never see a First Person Shooter running in FullHD on our bare MSX machines. But do we need to? If I want to play such a game I will boot up my PS4 or PC.
In theory you can achieve this by putting that RPI on a PCB and "downgrading" your MSX to a PSU with HDMI, but that has nothing to do with MSX anymore... at least for me.
On the other hand, it makes the achievement even better if someone is able to produce something on the MSX hardware which people once thought was impossible. Getting the most out of our beloved MSX... That's what I like to see Smile

P.S.
According to my own definition... what would this mean for the poor SCC? I love that chip!

And a bit more ontopic: Yeah, I would still love to see a decent Outrun (or Pinball Dreams) on my MSX Smile Smile But I'd prefer a version that gets the most out of the MSX/MSX2/MSX2+/Turbo-R....

Van st1mpy

Hero (604)

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29-12-2019, 22:49

V9990 is also available for amstrad CPC, so may be you could make a cross platform game.

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