LOW performance graphics cartridge for MSX-1

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Door MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

afbeelding van MäSäXi

03-10-2008, 11:02

As there have been topics for new graphics cards and graphics cartridges like VSU and VDPX, which turn (any) MSXs to same level (or beyond) as much more advanced gaming consoles of the late eighties/early nineties, and as not everybody does want such cards or cartridges, "because they are too high-tech for low tech MSX´er", I like to get some discussion about LOW tech graphics cartridge, which is aimed ONLY for MSX-1.

I am not against high-tech graphics cards/cartridges, please feel free to make them and buy them, I just want to discuss about possibility of lower tech graphics cartridge for MSX-1.

I, like many others, love MSX-1.

But I, like many others, like idea of having more sprites per scan line, etc...

I would like to see MSX graphics, which are powered up a bit, but just a BIT. Not 512 x 256 pixel screenmodes, not 256 colour sprites etc….

I would be happy if I could see games which have ordinary SCREEN 2 backgrounds, but if there just could be 8 or dare I say 16 Wink visible sprites per row, I don´t mind, if maximum amount of sprites per screen is still “just” 32. Smile
It´s fine for me, if sprites have still just one colour. Smile

Also choice between just horizontal or vertical sprite magnification would be nice. Smile Ataris can have 4x (or was it 8x?) player magnification, either horizontally, vertically or both same time.

Another thing, which is not essential, but…. I have always admired the look of Commodore 64´s 320x200 screenmode, how pixels are so small… I just like to see such thing on MSX-1….. Smile 320x200 is absolutely enough.

I am even not asking for hardware scroll. Big smile

It would be nice to have such graphics cartridge, which could have simple BASIC extension to use these few new features. Of course result of 320x200 screenmode is that you need to make BASIC extension to allow sprites go further than 256 pixels on X-axel and so on…. but I guess it´s possible to make this much easier than on Commodore 64, it would be nice to move sprites with just simple

FOR I=0 TO 319 : PUTSPRITE 0,(I,100),15,0 : NEXT

Please check Commodore literature how much hellishly HARDER it is to do same on Commodore 64 BASIC…… Tongue

But also I would be happy if I just could see those things in game cartridges, without having chance to make programs which use these low tech features, so, I guess it´s possible to add such chip to ordinary MSX-1 game cartridge.

I remember NES game Duck Tales had graphics chip which boosted graphical resolution of NES, so why not having such chip in some game cartridge to make that game to have 320x200 graphics on MSX-1? Smile

I understand, that it would be “wasting” of graphic chips just to use them to produce 8-16 sprites per scan line and/or 320x200 screenmode and that´s it, nothing more. I really don´t mind if some chip is “wasted” for such thing. Big smile

I ask such low-tech graphics cartridge, because I want to see bit better graphics on MSX-1, and at same time, I still want that result still looks enough like dear old MSX.

I understand that MSX does not look like MSX when it´s gone to 320x200 screenmode Tongue but I mean, that it looks still like EARLY EIGHTIES computer, not like Sega Megadrive or 16-bit Nintendo etc….

I don´t mean that this low-tech graphics cartridge should be competitor for VSUs etc, I don´t want any LOW tech graphics cartridge VS. HIGH tech graphics card/cartridge fighting, I just mean, that not everybody wants too-high-performance-cards for their old machines, especially many MSX-1´ers. That´s why I just wanted to discuss about opposite need.

Such low-tech cartridge is much more easy and much more quick to make. And I guess it doesn´t need long training to program some games, even just ONE game for such low-tech features. Smile

I think there are many people who would like to have such cartridge, which makes their old fantasies come true. Smile

But I understand also, that if this low-tech idea turns to real project(s), it can cause less time for MSX2/VSU/VDPX projects and make those people unhappy...

But as I said, I just like to discuss about this. If I had skills for doing this by myself, I surely had done such low-tech cartridge ages ago.... Smile

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Van MagicBox

Master (209)

afbeelding van MagicBox

03-10-2008, 11:14

Heh... nothing stops you from making low-res MSX1 style patterns and sprites on something like VDPX. VDPX programming is going to be so much easier than it was on TMS9918 Wink You could just use colors 0 - 15 for sprites and patterns, set the palette table to MSX1 standard colors and off you go, authentic MSX1 graphics.

Van MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

afbeelding van MäSäXi

03-10-2008, 11:30

I thought about that. Smile

Putting graphics chip to cartridge is great thing, as you don´t have to open your machine and insert/solder chip.

But drawback is that not all MSX-1s have two cartridge slots, if you put graphics cartridge to only one slot, you cannot use brandnew game cartridge which uses features of graphics cartridge. Same problem arises with MSX-MUSIC cartridge...

But that´s not your fault! Wink Smile

And of course same problem arises if someone makes 320x200pixels/16sprites-per-row cartridge....

But if it doesn´t cost too much to put such 320x200pixels-etc.. chip to each game cartridge... then it´s no problem.
Smile

Van Hrothgar

Champion (479)

afbeelding van Hrothgar

03-10-2008, 12:28

I think scrolling is one of the most basic things you'll want to have to improve the MSX videochip. And I'm not even talking about having a full scrolling implementation as on MSX2+, just a smoothscroll register for 8px adjustment in both directions, combined with border masking. As you can still use the low-memory MSX1 screen 2 you can update it every frame, enabling any scroll speeds from 1 to 8px per frame.

Just look at other hugely successful systems from the 80's: C64 and NES. Both had scrolling capabilities and in both cases almost all games benefited from that.

As for sprites: I'd say coloured sprites are as important as extending the sprites-per-scanline limit. Again look at NES: it also had sprite flicker (hell, there were hardly any games without sprite flicker) but that didn't prevent them from using more sprites per line. C64 also had 8 *coloured* sprites per line and you could do almost anything with that. 8 on a line (as on MSX2) is more than enough, as long as you con't waste double or triple sprites to get some colour.

Don't bother about increasing the resolution to 320px horizontally: on C64 that was basically only useful for static images, games usually used an even lower resolution. For retro games 256px is enough; only for applications (word processing, graphical file management) it's a different story altogether.

Van SLotman

Paragon (1242)

afbeelding van SLotman

03-10-2008, 16:30

I would be happy if I could see games which have ordinary SCREEN 2 backgrounds, but if there just could be 8 or dare I say 16 Wink visible sprites per row, I don´t mind, if maximum amount of sprites per screen is still “just” 32. Smile
It´s fine for me, if sprites have still just one colour. Smile

Why dont you just code for MSX2, in screen 4, using MSX1 palette?
Then you´ll have you 8 sprites per line, just like screen 2, and sprites with single color or with one color per line Tongue

Van ARTRAG

Enlighted (6923)

afbeelding van ARTRAG

03-10-2008, 17:56

IMHO there is no point in making "small" improvements to the standard,
or you stay for what you have, or you do something so appealing that
anyone would develop and buy it.

The fact is that FPGA development costs a lot of work, and the new HW cost money.
We are few thousands (msx hobbyists I mean) all over the word.
We are some dozens of active developers (50% focused on msx1).
Give that the price of new HW cannot be too low, or you attract the public with amazing and outstanding features
(included HW-SW bundles, clear and simple API for programmers etc etc) or your new child will born dead.

Van MagicBox

Master (209)

afbeelding van MagicBox

03-10-2008, 18:48

Sure, hardware will cost some. But FPGA development costs are zero, 0.000. As for VDPX, it's an entirely non-profit project.

Van MäSäXi

Paragon (1884)

afbeelding van MäSäXi

03-10-2008, 20:15

I was thinking that added hardware scroll may destroy "beloved" colour clash feature of MSX-1. Wink That´s why I didn´t ask hardware scroll. But of course hardware scroll is nice thing to have and to drool about.... Tongue As long as screen2 is still screen2. Smile

And as I said, 320x200 resolution is NOT a must, it´s just my little pervert dream... Tongue

Why dont you just code for MSX2, in screen 4, using MSX1 palette?
Then you´ll have you 8 sprites per line, just like screen 2, and sprites with single color or with one color per line

...maybe just because it´s not MSX1.... Smile and I´m pretty conservative.... Tongue but on the other hand, I know that powered-up MSX1 is not exactly MSX1 anymore.... what I mean, I just like to have possibility to bit power-up my MSX1.. Smile I understand that such power-up cartridge may be too costly...

Van PingPong

Prophet (4093)

afbeelding van PingPong

03-10-2008, 21:16

if the vdp allowed 16 sprites/scanline and had mask and scroll registers in both directions, even non circular, no other machine could beat it.

Van JohnHassink

Ambassador (5655)

afbeelding van JohnHassink

03-10-2008, 23:39

Why dont you just code for MSX2, in screen 4, using MSX1 palette?
Then you´ll have you 8 sprites per line, just like screen 2, and sprites with single color or with one color per line Tongue

I've seen some very impressive (parallax scroll) stuff using VSCREEN lately.

Well yeah, there's the 'color spill', but screen 4 seems to be an underrated screen mode.
While great games make use of it (Space Manbow, Psycho World, HyDeFoS).

Isn't the different colors /line in HW sprites a typical MSX2 feature?

Van Yukio

Paragon (1540)

afbeelding van Yukio

04-10-2008, 01:05

I believe that a proper "mapper" that could be used for easily 'hardware' scroll registers when paging should be possible. Even scaling and rotating of tile characters would be possible ... Imagine a shooter with this mapper! It could start a new series on MSX home microcomputers and a new start on the game scene.

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